[Adam Clayman]

Bob, That was Gib's buddy who had the wine. (Petersen's?) BTW, My index has never been below 9.7. I've shot 70 twice at PG and both were the result of that peaceful feeling one sometimes gets when accompanied by fine individuals.

Back to topic. Charming is felt through the ebb and flow of the course through the specific property. Both Merion and Pebble have oodles.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob, That was Gib's buddy who had the wine. (Petersen's?) BTW, My index has never been below 9.7. I've shot 70 twice at PG and both were the result of that peaceful feeling one sometimes gets when accompanied by fine individuals.

Back to topic. Charming is felt through the ebb and flow of the course through the specific property. Both Merion and Pebble have oodles.

Truer words have never been spoken.  Well said, Adam.  I have to say I came away impressed by a lot of things that day, your play being the main one, but the camraderie of it all being very important also.

And that is so right re charm.

I think both courses at MPCC have it. 

TH

[Michael Moore]

A charming person makes you feel special and important, as does a charming course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

"As great as they are to play, what is charming about any courses by Raynor or Banks?  And for Macdonald for that matter though they have more charm.  Are NGLA, St. Louis CC and Yale charming courses? Maybe to a degree Piping Rock, Creek Club and Mid Ocean (I've not been there) are charming." -W.Morrison

What's it been Wayne, a couple of weeks without your obligatory, and highly suspect, cheap shot at Raynor? 

Bob Huntley seems to disagree with you about Raynor's ability to create a charming course( he chose Fishers Island as such). Now, I only 'know' Bob through his postings here, but such a seemingly charming fellow probably has a pretty good handle on the definition.

 

[wsmorrison]

Jim Kennedy,

What you fail to realize is that a definition like charming as applied to golf courses is a very subjective one.  My own take on it (and that of Mark Rowlinson, to whom I addressed this point) was that naturalism is an important component in charm.

I've never been to Fishers Island.  I've seen many photographs.  I was told that the golf course was not finished according to the Raynor plans and the fairway bunkering scheme was not implemented.  I don't have the original drawings so I don't know if it is true or not.  But it seems to me that much of the charm of the golf course just might be that it was left unfinished and therefore is far more natural than other Raynor courses.  Thanks for seemingly agreeing with our point! 

I only know Bob Huntley from his posts and a few IMs we've sent each other over the years.  I would agree that he is a charming man with a fascinating background and thus is very unique to me, adding to his charm.   Bob is free to disagree with me as are you.  I don't care if we don't see eye to eye as it relates to golf architecture.  The opinions of anyone related to subjective matters of golf architecture do not weigh in my decisions on regarding the character of a man or woman.  You seem to think so. 

Bob mentioned one Raynor course that he feels has charm.  Perhaps he knows others.  Now then, please tell me what you find charming about any other Raynor or Banks course in which you do have experience.  Isn't that a lot more relevant to the topic at hand than your personal evalutations or suspected motives?  Others contributing to this thread discuss the topic and not some critique or praise of individuals making contributions.  Why are you doing so?

[Sean_A]

I don't know, I have a harder time seeing a links as charming.  Perhaps its all those wind and rain lashed days on the seaside.  Perhaps a few exceptions come to mind.  West Cornwall and Perranporth?

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

I think I know what you mean, Sean.  But Royal Dornoch, North Berwick and Western Gailes seem charming to me.  So did Crail.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Wayne,
Maybe I chose the wrong 'smiley', I was poking a little fun at you and little else. If you think I'm judging your character by any of your opinions about GCA, you're wrong.

My first post on this thread was agreeing with something you wrote. At that time I thought that the 'exercise' was posters giving their opinions of the various characteristics that might be considered 'charming'.  I was actually thinking in the positive, I wasn't viewing this as trying to identify 'charm' by going negative on any architect, or any course for that matter, based on my subjective opinions.

As for any other Raynor courses:   I  know some people consider Hotchkiss to be  a charming layout. Their opinion may derive from the way the 3,000 yards of 85 year old golf course weaves its way around the perimeter of our 115 year old campus, with stately brick structures as the interior backdrop. Maybe they like the graceful roll of the fairways and how that appears to seamlessly transition into greensites. Maybe the bit of quirkiness found on our gentle Alps hole adds to the charm. Perhaps it comes when they are standing on our fifth tee (a downhill “Short”), that overlooks Lake Wononscopomuc, the town of Lakeville, and the distant mountains of the Taconic Range, where iron ore was mined and smelted into cannonballs during the Revolutionary War. It might even start earlier for some people, right when they come in the graveled driveway and see the one-story, gray shingled, white trimmed, slightly dilapidated cottage (think ‘Sconset)  that serves as our clubhouse (please change your shoes in the parking lot, there’s no room inside). Maybe they think it's 'charming' that they can walk and play our nine holes in as little as an hour 1/2, or stroll around as they please on a quiet weekday morning.





 








 

[Mark Pearce]

Proof that this is subjective.  I can see a links being charming, indeed I mentioned Elie in my first post.  I love North Berwick but, to me, it isn't a charming course.  Perhaps this is because I know Elie very,very well, having played it dozens of times but haven't played North Berwick nearly as often.  Does familiarity with a course help it show its charm?

Wayne,  I hope the weather over here improves to allow you to play Huntercombe in dry, firm condition.  

[Mark_Fine]

I think it is an interesting question.  However, I'm trying to think if I ever used the word charm or charming to describe a golf course that I really thought was great?  Charm is a positive word, but does anyone think that in some ways it could have a negative connotation if applied to a description of a golf course?  I guess when I think of a charming golf course I think of one like Pitlochry in the Scottish Highlands.  It is pleasant and cute and fun to play.  But I'm not sure a course like Shinnecock Hills or Pine Valley or even a course like Wannamoisett (only on about 100 acres) would want to be classified as charming?  

[wsmorrison]

Sorry, Jim.  I saw the upturned eyes and thought you were being critical of me and my views on Raynor and Banks.

Mark,

Thanks for your good weather wishes.  I am anxious to see some early WP, Jr.

[Carl Nichols]

I think it is an interesting question.  However, I'm trying to think if I ever used the word charm or charming to describe a golf course that I really thought was great?  Charm is a positive word, but does anyone think that in some ways it could have a negative connotation if applied to a description of a golf course?  I guess when I think of a charming golf course I think of one like Pitlochry in the Scottish Highlands.  It is pleasant and cute and fun to play.  But I'm not sure a course like Shinnecock Hills or Pine Valley or even a course like Wannamoisett (only on about 100 acres) would want to be classified as charming?  

I agree with Mark.  The first course that comes to my mind when I think "charming" is Hanover CC at Dartmouth, for various reasons:  short, but no pushover, with some interesting greens; easy to walk (at least with respect to distances from green to tee, it's pretty hilly); fun to play; affiliated with a college; no frills "clubhouse"; and a good amount of quirk.  In fact, lots of quirk, such as the ski jump on the back nine (now torn down, I think); the fact that the tee shots on 5 and 18 cross the same ravine at about a 150 degree angle, so you have to time your tee shots; the footbridge over the same ravine (with players crossing in opposite directions); and the package store close to the 8th tee for refreshments.  To me, that's a charming place -- but I could imagine lots of places not wanting to be in such company. 

[Sean_A]

Mark

I know what you mean.  Charming is a different sort of thing to great and it may be used by folks who really like a course, but are afraid to call it great because its probably not "long enough".  About the only two courses that I consider great and charming are North Berwick & Huntercombe.  Other possibles may include Pennard, Brora, Tenby and perhaps Prestwick - though I doubt I would get much support (not so sure myself) especially for Tenby.  I can't think of a single current championship course that is both great and charming (well, maybe just Sandwich).  Herein is one of the problems I have with championship golf.

Ciao

[Ash Towe]

Grant was correct when he said Arrowtown has charm.  I felt immediately comfortable in the surroundings.
The people who run the place were relaxed and welcoming which is a help.
The course was fun, challenging and let you make decisions.  These factors help make a charming place to play.

[Mark_Fine]

I think for example that most of the members of Merion would go ballistic if Golfweek did an article a few weeks before the U.S. Open at Merion and described the course in the headlines as a "charming" course for the best players in the world to come play.  I think they would feel slighted.

[Kalen Braley]

For those who have played it, I think Indian Canyon in Spokane WA could potentially fit into this category. 

As it plays thru the tall pines, you get a sense of both isolation and taking a stroll thru the forrest.  From the tips its only 6200, but the narrowness keeps you honest on many holes.  And the greens are nothing short of spectacular and worth the play alone.  Think Pasatiempo style greens as IC is also built on some fairly severe terrain.

[TEPaul]

"Merion East is an enjoyably difficult golf course on a small piece of land.  I do sense the charm alan Wilson was talking about and have felt that way elsewhere (Merion West, Swinley Forest, Kittansett, Dornoch, perhaps at Indian Creek), but for the life of me, cannot figure it out.  What say you all?"



Wayne:

I thought you understood, at this point, that whenever Alan Wilson wrote anything about Merion he was either glorifying and eulogizing his brother or just lying through his teeth!

[wsmorrison]

I think for example that most of the members of Merion would go ballistic if Golfweek did an article a few weeks before the U.S. Open at Merion and described the course in the headlines as a "charming" course for the best players in the world to come play.  I think they would feel slighted.

Mark F,

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Tom P,

What a stupid I am!

[Bradley Anderson]

Wayne,

Do you think Merion lost something of it's "charm" when they planted it with conifer trees?

It seems to me that the charm of that golf features that are just perfectly nestled in with their environment. To me, the conifer trees interfere with those lines.

[Tim Gavrich]

Palmetto GC--Aiken, SC
Fenwick GC--Fenwick, CT
Hartford GC--West Hartford, CT
Lexington G&CC--Lexington, VA

[Gerry B]

interesting thread.

if i would consider a course charming - i do not consider difficulty as a factor.

yes, i consider Merion charming - but as a comparison would not describe its neighbour across the Delaware - Pine Valley as charming. PV is Cecil B DeMille and Merion is Billy Wilder or Frank Capra

other courses that i would consider charming :

Myopia Hunt Club - perhaps the most charming course IMHO

Shoreacres

Atlantic City CC

Indian Creek

Bel Air

Fishers Island

Scarboro in Toronto

NGLA

The Creek Club

Maidstone

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