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Mark Bourgeois

Suppose for some bizarre reason Tiger decides to set a Nicklausian record for course records in Scotland and Ireland by playing in regular, open to you and me (but still big deal!) ONE DAY tournaments across the summer.  Or whichever ones you have to play in to set “official” course records – if that’s the Open Championship, then let’s just pretend it’s another tournament held there that’s truly open and not some type of Euro Tour event.  Arrgh! I'm already anticipating nit-picky questions -- look, the point is: it's a one-day, stroke-play deal. Just go with me on that...

(Yes, assume his knee is full strength and he’s not playing any majors. He cleared his entire calendar for this noble endeavor!)  He plots out a schedule that enables him to play in tournaments for the courses grouped into the three lists below. The course records come from Donald Steel’s book and yes I know they’re probably out of date. But that’s simpler!

To do:
1.   Rank the groups from most to least course records he racks up.
2.   Supply the number of course records he earns in each group.
3.   Explain your reasoning!

Assume both Scotland and Ireland have “typical” summers, with Scotland’s falling on July 15th of this year and Ireland’s on the 7th July.

And now, the groups:

Scotland Low (the 10 lowest course records listed in Steel’s book among Scottish courses)
Elie (62)
Luffness New (62)
Panmure (62)
TOC (62 -- Yes, I know they keep changing the “record” as they lengthen the course and that 64 by David Frost in 2005 is now the “official” record but let’s keep it at 62 to remain consistent to Steel. Also, if we go with 62 it enables us to get an extra Rota course into the discussion.)
Lundin (63)
Leven (63)
Turnberry (63)
Cruden Bay (63)
Crail (63)
North Berwick (63)

Scotland High (the ten highest in Scotland that appear in Steel's book)*
Muirfield (64)
Troon (64)
Southerness (65)
Western Gailes (65)
Machrie (66)
Dornoch (66)
Nairn (65)
Carnoustie (65)
Moray (66)
Prestwick (68)

Ireland
Portmarnock (64)
Royal Dublin (64)
County Louth (65)
Waterville (65)
County Down (66)
County Sligo (66)
Portrush (66)
Tralee (66)
Ballybunion (67)
Lahinch (68)

*Actually, seven courses in the Scotland High group with course records of 64 qualify for the list – I just picked the two Rota courses figuring those would be the toughest to break – and thereby, ahem, strengthen my hypothesis. Feel free to pick any two from this list:
Aberdeen (64)
Dunbar (64)
Gullane (64)
Macrihanish (64)
Montrose (64)
Muirfield (64)
Troon (64)

My first thought was to go with the group with the highest records, but then I figured it could be tougher actually to go low.  He only gets ONE shot at each! So I say:

Ireland (5 – some of these courses are tournament tested but some are not; Sligo, Tralee, Ballybunion and Lahinch all have to be strong possibilities unless he gets freaky-by-Ireland-standards weather, yes?)

Scotland High (4 – Richie’s home course takes a pounding)

Scotland Low (3 – I think he’ll destroy these courses as a lot, but the math looks really hard to beat. There are two Rota courses in here and I figure he doesn’t get any Rota courses on his little swing through the Isles.)

What do you say?

Mark

Mark Bourgeois

And yes Tony I know ROI isn't in the UK but it wouldn't fit in the hed!

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
TOTALLY condition based...

Low 0 or 1.  A 63 has to involve some luck as well as a boatload of skill.  There are alot of funky bounces on these courses to steal a shot here or there.

High 2 or 3?

Ireland....3 or 4.  Some of those are 68...
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
This is pure speculation except in the case of Ireland, where he has played most of the listed courses multiple times -- and, as far as I know, doesn't have any of the posted course records, so Brad's projection is a bit off base. 

(I don't think Tiger posted his card in those rounds all that often ... it's not unknown for Tour pros to break the record and not tell anyone, figuring they might offend the record-holder, especially if he's local.)


BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
The course record for Prestwick is 68?

That is very surprising. I would guess that a sampling of top tour players would AVERAGE fairly close to that score.

Bob
« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 05:04:11 PM by BCrosby »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark, those scores are tournament scores, no? 
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mark Bourgeois

Andy

I thought for a score to count as a record at least two conditions needed to be met:
1. Tournament round
2. "Medal" tees

Beyond that I assumed it varied by club. Tom D's comment makes me wonder though and I could see a club lunging for a card of any famous pro who swing through, to be used for marketing....

Mark

Patrick Glynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is kind of a spin off but I was having a conversation the other weekend about what the winning score would be at Lahinch if it was a PGA Tour stop, 72 hole strokeplay event. I maintained that if there was a reasonable amount of wind (~15mph) and no crazy weather, that -12 would be a good total. My playing partner believed than -24 would be a much more realistic total, as 2, 4, and 18 would be basically par 4s, and 13 only a long Par 3.

I still stand by my 276 total but would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Retief Goosen shot 63 at Prestwick the day after the Hoylake Open. 

Jim Nugent

I read online that the course record at Lahinch is 64. 

Rich Goodale

Mark

The course record at Dornoch is 62, set by a now forgotten assistant pro in a toonamint 5-10 years ago.  Nobody has come closer than 65 since.  Tiger could do in the 50's easily if he was in form (it's a par 66 for him) and the greenkeeper wasn't evil on the day.

Rich

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is pure speculation except in the case of Ireland, where he has played most of the listed courses multiple times -- and, as far as I know, doesn't have any of the posted course records, so Brad's projection is a bit off base. 

(I don't think Tiger posted his card in those rounds all that often ... it's not unknown for Tour pros to break the record and not tell anyone, figuring they might offend the record-holder, especially if he's local.)



Tiger holds the course record at Royal County Down - 64.

A lot of it would be down to weather. He's played RCD 3 times and shot 78 and 83 on terrible days and 64 on a glorious day.

Patrick Glynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
That 64 at Lahinch was shot my Greg Young & Patrick Collier I think. But it was pre-Hawtree alterations, with the 14th being a ~500 yard par 5 and the 12th being a Par 4, also the 3rd was in play then. I believe the "new" course record is 67 but am open to correction.

Mark Bourgeois

It's amazing to think weather could account for a 19 stroke variance at RCD.

Never thought the records might be harder to break without the bevy of spotters these guys are used to.

One the other hand, RCD points to one record every three rounds!

It seems like we've got Brad on one end against the consensus I infer (cowards!) from the body of these posts, namely 100 percent success rate.

Does anyone really believe Tiger would, with just one crack at each, break more than 20 percent of the records?

Even if he just gets the wispy, he still has to find his ball, and he doesn't get the army of spotters he's used to. (Well, maybe.)

Mark

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tigers played RCD four times. The only one I missed was when he shot his 64. His back 9 30 also conained 3 lip-outs so lower was a possiblilty and he played the last 3 into the wind in -5. The most amzing fact is that he Steve Williams had to stop him tying in to drive 13!

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