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Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
I personally would love to play The Crump with a roll back ball...that would be fun,,,and Pine Valley could certainly do that if they desired...I promise that nobody would stay away from the mecca of golf course design.

However from some of those new tees it would be one heck of a challenge...the carry on number 18 would be even more scary.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks, Steve

I've played with many players of your caliber, still hit the ball nearly as long as you do (but probably not as consistenly) and I would be surprised if you did not find ~6,700 yard courses such as Dornoch, Pacific Dunes and Prestwick "a little short" for you.

Rich

Form and funtuion are a both, and not an either/or.

Rich: you are correct. I've played Dornoch and Prestwick and both were a little short for me - Prestwick more so than Dornoch and at Dornoch I couldn't play the back tees because one of the guys in our group wasn't good enough. But, the architecture is so compelling at both courses I didn't mind it. Both were great fun. I guess that is part of the point. If the architecture is great and engaging, length is not a necessity. But, when the architecture is lacking you need to length to make the course interesting and challenging - at least for everybody but tour pros.

When playing Bandon Dunes and Trails in the Mid-Am last year we played it at 6,900 and 6,800 yards roughly. Those were good distances in my book - albeit probably short to guys like Trip Kuehne. Courses at those lengths are still perfectly acceptable/needed because it's rare that I play with anyone who hits it way by me.

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
The top players may not interface with the architecture as they did long ago, but they are at the very narrow top of the golfing  pyramid.

Can it not be argued that technology has allowed the "base" of the golfing pyramid to better interface with the architecture?  If so, is this not more conducive to growing the game?

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm certainly no engineer, but it seems to me that a ball "rollback" will affect the players at the elite levels far more than it would for the recreational golfers, but be good for the game. . .  If a Pro V1 travels X yards when struck at 135 or 140 mph, the powers that be could mandate that it only travel X-Y (something that seemingly could occur as part of the manufacturing process).  That could eliminate, or at least obviate, the problem that some (many? most?) see with the affect of this ball technology on the game.  What today's professional golfers are doing is playing with the 1970 Top Flite balls, with covers that permit them to play elite golf shots.  There is no need for "one ball."  Just a ball, made by whichever company wants to enter into the marketplace, that won't go so far.

For the recreational/80-100 mph swinger of the ball, the reduction in distance will clearly -- if my h.s. physics teacher was correct that Energy =  mass (which will stay the same) x velocity squared.  Since I don't swing the club at that speed, I don't hit the ball as far. 

This is clearly an oversimplified assessment by a non-scientist, but if you do not believe that the distances the modern golf ball travels are a threat to the game, IMO you have your head in the sand. . .

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
These great clubs of legend can not be expected to set the criteria for what kind of equipment can be used on there golf courses. They really have no choice but to respond by increasing length and difficulty.

Carl Rogers

yes, all good and persuasive points ... the advent of the hybrid and high lofted lob wedge has been a net plus .... agree?

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pat's original post, let's keep in mind that Byron Nelson was 49 when the match aired (he turned 50 soon after) and Gene Littler was known for his rhythm and accuracy, with very little lower body action in the swing.  So the fact that these player are short by modern standards shouldn't be a surprise.  At that time they were short by early 60's standards as well.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Melvyn Morrow

It would appear that the golfing world is required to accommodate the 1% or 2% of players who can hit a ball a long way. Yet the game is played by millions around the world. So to accommodate these precious few, millions must be spent on new 7,000 yard plus course, also pressure is being put on our older and traditional courses to extend.

WHY?

Would it not be in the general good of the game to think about MR & Mrs Average, instead of always having to increase the length of courses? The simplest solution would be to redesign the club and balls and play within
the current constraints.

We cannot just keep extending the length of our courses, common sense must surely be brought into the equation, soon if not later.

On the public roads there is no problem setting a speed limiting for all vehicles including a Ferrari, Porsche, Ford or Chrysler, so why can’t we work on the ball and clubs, use technology to work with what is available.

That old saying is still true… ‘If there’s a will, there’s a way’. But I expect testosterone levels will have the usual negative effect on common sense
and school yard mentality, ‘mine is bigger than yours’, will rule. Allowing the argument/debate to continue in ever decreasing circles.

Melvyn Morrow

AHughes

In answer to your question I have just looked at
my bag and my clubs read as follows:- 
Clubs               
1 x  Long Spoon
1 x  Bulger Head Driver
1 x  Brassie
1 x  Heavy Rut Iron
1 x  Schenectady Putter
1 x  Driving Cleek
1 x  Driving Iron
1 x  Mid-Mashie
1 x  Mashie Iron
1 x  Mashie
1 x  Spade Mashie
1 x  Mashie Niblick
1 x  Pitching Niblick
1 x  Niblick

Balls
3 x  Feather by Allan Robertson
2 x  Smooth Gutty
2 x  Machined Gutty
1 x  Haskell
2 x  Rubber Core Silver Kings

Perhaps you now understand why 7,000 yard courses are not my favourite, hardly ever get a par theses days. But then apparently
there is some value in all those Tom Morris clubs.


Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
MM, I place thee upon the Altar of True Believers and will just say we are not worthy.  You are one of the tiny group who can rightfully make the arguments others try and hypocritically fail to make.

PS A feathery made by Allan Robertson is still usable all these years later?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
AHughes

In answer to your question I have just looked at
my bag and my clubs read as follows:- 
Clubs               
1 x  Long Spoon
1 x  Bulger Head Driver
1 x  Brassie
1 x  Heavy Rut Iron
1 x  Schenectady Putter
1 x  Driving Cleek
1 x  Driving Iron
1 x  Mid-Mashie
1 x  Mashie Iron
1 x  Mashie
1 x  Spade Mashie
1 x  Mashie Niblick
1 x  Pitching Niblick
1 x  Niblick

Balls
3 x  Feather by Allan Robertson
2 x  Smooth Gutty
2 x  Machined Gutty
1 x  Haskell
2 x  Rubber Core Silver Kings

Perhaps you now understand why 7,000 yard courses are not my favourite, hardly ever get a par theses days. But then apparently
there is some value in all those Tom Morris clubs.



I too would like to echo A's sentiments.  There are a few people who preach against length and resist the temptation to to jump on the bigger & better bandwagon.  Well done sir.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

You Guys are making me feel guilty. :-[

I should have also mentioned that I have my main bag which I use when playing golf. That and the clubs in it date from the late 1970’s with a few newer clubs from the early 1980’s.  :'(

I use studs as well, two in my upper lip, and one way further down. ;)

The perils of having a conscience  :o :o 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
I gotta say that the one thing that shocked me (other than seeing golf on TV at a normal, non-Slowsky pace) was the rat-ass condition of those fairways.  Every time I see old fairways like that on TV, I always wonder how those guys did what they did with the ball.  Byron Nelson, with V grooves, backed up a handful of shots off that crap.  I'd imagine that today's whiney U-groove usin' Tour players would insist that they're hitting flyers on every shot of fairways like that.  Yet, Byron was backing 'em up....

That's because Byron is the original Iron Byron.

-----

Few things annoy me as much as folks who respond to a modest rollback with, "Well, why are we all playing gutties?"

Yeah, that's good logic. A 5-10% reduction is almost the same thing as returning to featheries, wooden shafts and whatever.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Shivas -

Good point. You might take it further. Bob Jones commented a couple of times in the 50's and 60's that he thought the most striking change in courses at that time was fairway conditioning. He said something to the effect that what was different was that everyone got a good lie in the fw. Which suggests that what we now see as rugged fw's at PV in 1961 would have been seen by people like Jones as a vast improvement over fw's in the Golden Age.

PV fw's looked pretty raw. But us moderns would probably be shocked at what people thought of as fw's in the 1920's.

Bob




Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
One point that hasn't been mentioned so far in this thread, but which I have made before, is that the last 10 years of technology appear to have had the perverse effect of widening the gap between elite players and recreational golfers.  No less an authority than Jack Nicklaus agrees, as strongly as he can, with that reality.

I don't presume that a rollback would be easy, but I do think that it is important and essential.

Two arguments that I want to reject and refute in the strongest possible terms are the ideas that "course lengthening concerns only apply to the tiny fraction of courses that host elite, tour-type events," and that anybody who wants to play a retro game should just go ahead and do that on their own."

As to the latter argument, it is as thin as it is stupid.  What we are talking about here is a debate over the rules of a game, for the good of that game.  I could just as easily say, "If you are someone who wants to play bomb-and-gouge golf, just go get yourself a High-CoR driver and a couple dozen Bandit balls and flail away.  And don't worry about the rules."  It is not a question of individual choice or personal preference.  It is a debate over how the game's rules should be crafted for people who want to play by the rules.  I would no more use a ridiculously old retro retro driver or golf ball, disadvantaging myself under the rules, than I would use an illegal ball or 16 clubs in a match.
The old argument that goes, "If you want a ball rollback, just go get yourself some old Spalding Dots," is an argument that should be consigned to the dustbin forever.

The other former argument, that if the concern about technology is really a concern over what the technology is doing to golf courses, is a much better one that demands careful analysis, because it has some truth.  But I don't see how anyone gets around the basic notion that golf is great because we all play by one set of rules, and because we can play many of the same great championship courses that the elites play.  As a ball rollback proponent, my sole concern is with the golf courses, and not in denying championship victories to long-hitters or trying to help short hitters.  I think we should regard courses like The Old Course and ANGC as coal-mine canaries, that are telling us we need to go in a different direction in terms of elite play, because the last 10 years have created a distortion with the one good clear measuring device that we have, the classic championship courses.

The other arguments about how equipment manufacturers will be hurt, or the USGA will be sued, or how recreational players need the psychological crutch of the hope that equipment will give them more distance, are all pure bunk, at least on their merits.  (Yes the USGA might get sued, but it is a battle that they should win, and should welcome in order to assert their role as Legal Guardian of the game.)

By the way, let us also dispose forever of the argument that a "ball rollback" means a Luddite retreat to an older design.  Not for a minute would I suggest that we go back to balata.  I favor new specs that will continue to allow for OEM reserach and development, competiion and new ideas.  (A Toonamint Ball for Augusta is a nice idea as a political threat, but it is a non-starter as a general policy for golf administration.)  I'd like to see new ball specs that simply reverse the situation in which tour players have picked up 25, 30 or 40 yards with new equipment and recreational players have picked up 5 yards.  It might mean new regulations on spin, or ball size, or weight, or composition or materials.  I leave that to the technicians and the engineers.  But from the perspective of sound management of the game, I don't know how this argument can be resisted.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I gotta say that the one thing that shocked me (other than seeing golf on TV at a normal, non-Slowsky pace) was the rat-ass condition of those fairways.  Every time I see old fairways like that on TV, I always wonder how those guys did what they did with the ball.  Byron Nelson, with V grooves, backed up a handful of shots off that crap.  I'd imagine that today's whiney U-groove usin' Tour players would insist that they're hitting flyers on every shot of fairways like that.  Yet, Byron was backing 'em up....

One thing you saw was Byron getting significant back up from an 8 iron. Given the vanishing loft disease of today's clubs, that would be at least a 9 iron, if not the equivalent of a 9.5 (e.g. a bent 9 or PW). Furthermore, the ball he used had higher spin off that club than today's ProV. Likewise, the ball had significantly higher spin off the driver, which I believe is the primary reason behind the shorter drives.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'd like to see new ball specs that simply reverse the situation in which tour players have picked up 25, 30 or 40 yards with new equipment and recreational players have picked up 5 yards.  It might mean new regulations on spin, or ball size, or weight, or composition or materials.  I leave that to the technicians and the engineers.  But from the perspective of sound management of the game, I don't know how this argument can be resisted.

IMHO, the easiest to implement and enforce would be to simply require the ball to be marginally lighter.

The USGA did this in 1931, and it proved to be effective. However, as John Vander Borght noted in his IMO article it was not well accepted. (See http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionvanderborght.html).

I think the problem was that the balata ball of the day was already too hard for most people to control in the wind, and making it lighter exacerbated the problem. The other thing is that they increased the size at the same time, adding to difficulty of adapting to the change--today we have 78 years of playing with the larger ball.

In addition, the majority of amateurs today play two-piece balls that hardly spin at all--compared to a wound balata.

The real beauty of a lighter ball is that its effects would be felt most noticeably by those with extremely high ball speeds. At the highest speeds the ball would be slightly harder to control, and would require their full attention. It would alos lose it's velocity somewhat more quickly, as cross-sectional density and initial velocity are big factors in how quickly a projectile decelerates.

At the bottom of the ball speed food chain, a lighter ball might actually help players like my 84-year-old mother get the ball airborne, and keep it airborne.

It would slightly shift the power/control balance back toward control, and it should reduce some of the advantages of bomb-and-gouge golf.

Ken
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 12:41:43 PM by kmoum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote
and that anybody who wants to play a retro game should just go ahead and do that on their own."

As to the latter argument, it is as thin as it is stupid.  What we are talking about here is a debate over the rules of a game, for the good of that game.  I could just as easily say, "If you are someone who wants to play bomb-and-gouge golf, just go get yourself a High-CoR driver and a couple dozen Bandit balls and flail away.  And don't worry about the rules."  It is not a question of individual choice or personal preference. 

While that option may strike you as 'thin' and 'stupid, it does have the advantage of being right. If there are those who would enjoy the game more by using clubs and balls that went shorter, they should be encouraged to do so.  That is the point of the game for the vast majority of us. 

Your comparison to someone else who wishes to use an illegal ball (I assume that is what a Bandit is?) stumbles a bit in that the retro player is using nothing but legal balls and clubs and is in no way doing anything unethical or wrong, and the other person is flagrantly breaking the rules.  Is that really the comparison you wish to make?

For some people, despite your claim, it really is an individual choice or personal preference.  Perhaps they wish to 'interface with the architecture' as it was originally intended, or maybe they prefer the workability of older balls and clubs, or maybe they like the feel of the ball coming off the face of their 40 year old Staff irons. Or maybe they just don't like looking down and seeing a basketball at the end of the shaft and prefer the beauty of an old wooden head.  Please look at what is in Mr Morrow's bag and decide if it has nothing to do with preference.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...prefer the beauty of an old wooden head. ...

They may be beautiful, but I have broken 3 of them, whereas, I haven't broken a single metal driver.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Gee, what a bunch of Luddite loving golfers!  I suppose guys like Melvyn still ski on barrel staves, and only go to "mountains" with rope tows or old single chair lifts?

It's 2008 boys, get with the drill!  New is better. New is easier. New is built upon the old and will one day be old...

Sometimes I think we embrace the past just little too much....

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote
They may be beautiful, but I have broken 3 of them, whereas, I haven't broken a single metal driver.

Garland, I am pleased your new club is more durable. I wasn't aware that was the selling point  ;)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Rich Goodale

Shivas -

Good point. You might take it further. Bob Jones commented a couple of times in the 50's and 60's that he thought the most striking change in courses at that time was fairway conditioning. He said something to the effect that what was different was that everyone got a good lie in the fw. Which suggests that what we now see as rugged fw's at PV in 1961 would have been seen by people like Jones as a vast improvement over fw's in the Golden Age.

PV fw's looked pretty raw. But us moderns would probably be shocked at what people thought of as fw's in the 1920's.

Bob





Very much agreed, Bob.

As I've said before, I played with my Grandfather a few times on his (very good) Ross course in the late 1950's, and remmeber him complaining about how his club was forcing the greenkeeper to guarantee "5-wood lies" in all the fairways.  He was a very good golfer in his day (1913 Club Champion), but even in his latter years he saw the folly of maintaining courses for the pleasure of the hackers.

Rich

Melvyn Morrow

Chuck

Well said

IMHO Golf is about playing by the rules – that is the game. Don’t play by the rules they Sorry you aren’t playing Golf – end of Story.

There should only be one type of Golf, that played by the majority of Golfers.Competitions and the Pro’s should use the same courses as the ordinary players

The excuse that one needs a 6,500 to 7,000 yard course to play your game is just ridicules, what about the majority who are happy with the 5,600 to 6,400 yard course, I don’t see them getting their way. Why do we keep having to accept the argument of the big hitters, yet they are quick to dismiss our comments.  You want to hit the long ball go to the practice range.

Because many now use carts the distance does not register, but if they had to walk 7,000 yards then I believe course of those sizes would start to loose customers, being played by those who ‘need the length’.

I am not out of date, nor a traditionalist, I was taught how golf is played,
I can’t see any reason to change it. I will repeat my past comments has a football pitch changes in size over the last 100 years, ditto your baseball pitches, so why do we have to keep changing the length of our courses for
a hand full of people, no matter how good they are.

The fault lies with our weak governing bodies, their inability to take control. I say use technology but not to keep increasing distance. There were reasons for the early changes in ball& clubs. The Feather ball was very expensive and retaining shape was a problem, the Gutty was a marked improvement but could shatter, Haskell again improved reliability. Once we had good reliability the ball should have remained constant. The same applied to clubs, the early clubs could have the heads snapped off by just strong backward forward movement of the wrists, the shafts would also snap, some say they were deliberately broken as the repair made them stronger. But all that is behind us. Why could we not limit the distance the ball would travel, to that set between the two World Wars. It won’t change the game for millions , but it will force a change for the minority, but if they are that good and skilled they will quickly accommodate the changes, but that will not happen its macho to be a big hitter, its not about golf its about how big are your balls. Well to stand up against this, I suppose we will need big balls as well. Its my opinion and I have a right to voice it, even though I am RIGHT.

As in everything today, the minority rules.


Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's true what Bob Jones said.  (I think his exact quote, when someone was asking him about the development of newer balls and steel shafts, was that the biggest technological advance that he had seen in golf was the modern greens mower, and it is something that ANGC embraced, with something of a vengeance.)

Again, as a ball rollback advocate, I don't want a reversal of technology.  I favor modern greens mowers, and modern agronomy so that we play on better, more consistent, fairer surfaces.  I think that makes for better golf.  I like metal-headed drivers and fw's, because they are easier to make and more consistent than persimmon.  Steel shafts are better than hickory because they are cheaper and more consistent.  The common thread with most,  if not all, of these things is that they make the game better, by making the game less expensive and more "democratic" in some sense.  The development of $500 titanium alloy driver heads and $300 composite shafts does not really serve the interest of a more affordable game.  The development of multilayer urethane balls that help JB Holmes hit it an extra 35 yards but only helps me by 5 yards (if I bother to use them at all) is not good.

As I tried to state before, and some seem to not have gotten it; this isn't about what I like versus what you like.  It is, I have to say, a zero-sum dispute in which the outcome will be either a change in the USGA's ball regulations and testing protocols, or not.

I assure you all that I will play with the best equipment that I can fit myself to, under the rules.  But I favor changing the rules.  There will be, I earnestly hope, just one set of rules.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
I, for one, think that hi-tech has drastically altered the game...

...for better.

Making the game easier and more accessible for an average player is always better for the overall health of the sport.

I don't care if pro's can it 400 yard drives, if they are so concerned they can use a modified ball. For the rest of us, technology has made the game of golf better. Change is not necessarily a bad thing.

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