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Coral_Ridge

Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« on: April 22, 2008, 09:53:52 PM »
Is Harry S. Colt the greatest architect of all time?  He certainly was prolific.  I was reading through my book "Planet Golf" and he is everywhere listed as the architect of many of the great courses outside of the USA.  I have linked a past thread titled appropriately Harry Colt.  According to TEPaul, Paul Turner is very knowledgeable on Colt.

To me this issue may be controversial since he was primarily in Great Britain and not in the United States.


Harry Colt



Andrew Summerell

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 10:07:51 PM »
Jon,

It is difficult to say any one architect is the greatest, but I have played about 20 of his courses & he is definitely my favourite.

He also influenced one or two guys who would be vying for the ‘greatest’ tag.

Unfortunately, he never traveled to my home country, so I have had to travel to play his courses. I would recommend anyone who loves golf architecture to do the same.

wsmorrison

Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 10:26:28 PM »
Of the relatively small sampling of courses of Colt I have played--I'm adding to it this summer, I'd say he is tops on my list with Flynn a not too distant second.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 10:29:08 PM »
If pressed, I'd vote for Colt.   

Of course, Paul Turner has a lot to do with that because he's provided pictorial essays of some of his little known gems that just whisper out, "play me". 

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2008, 10:33:45 PM »
i have to say he my fav...portrush, murified, swinley, de pan, etc..some would say (pine valley), the list is pretty long....

David Stamm

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2008, 10:36:30 PM »
Of the relatively small sampling of courses of Colt I have played--I'm adding to it this summer, I'd say he is tops on my list with Flynn a not too distant second.


There's a shocker! ;) And here's another, I think a very good case is made about Colt. With MacKenzie a close second! ;D I would put Thomas close to the top as well.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2008, 11:08:49 PM »
All depends on your criteria. For me, the greatest architect would be the one who drew the most out of the land he was given, while dictating the least to it. When you look at the incredible variety of Colt (and Alison)'s courses, one doesn't see a pattern, except in the high quality level.  The diversity of types of courses and types of shots makes me give Colt the nod over AM, CBM, AWT and DR.

Sean_A

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2008, 06:09:26 AM »
Colt certainly should be mentioned in any conversation concerning the great archies.  The thing which impresses me is that Colt was consistently very, very good.  Though, I don't believe he was any better at designing than a handful of other prominent archies.  However, Colt's case can be bolstered because of some of things around the profession at which he was successful very early on.

-Developed detailed drawings and plans

-Developed a professional practice (with associates) very early on

-Incorporated extraneous elements such as housing and tree plans into design

-Did work in differing climates and terrain

-Involved in mentoring Dr Mac and Alison

-One of the early heathland archies - though it must be pointed out that he aesthetically perfected the concepts originated by Park & Fowler.  Additionally, Park was probably the first to try to incorporate housing into a total design, but failed at Huntercombe.

- From contemporary sources, Colt seems to have been the pre-iminent archie of the day. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 09:17:15 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCrosby

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2008, 09:06:34 AM »
Sean stole a bit of my thunder.

Colt might have been the most important architectect historically. Sean notes many of the innovations he brought. You can make a good case that Colt established the profession of golf architecture.

That's not the same thing as saying he was the best architect. That's a much tougher question. I can think of several designers that give Colt a run for his money.

Bob


TEPaul

Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2008, 10:27:33 AM »
In my opinion, looked at from a number of different vantage points to do with the entire evolution and development of golf architecture Colt should probably be in the top 2-4 of all time.

But really interestingly, I think Colt should be looked at first as to his status in that remarkable contingent often known at "the Healtland architects". Was he essentially the leader or most significant developmental architect in that contingent? He probably was but some of the others from that time and place (Heathlands from around 1900-in to the teens and 1920s) did some remarkable work.

The reason I think the "Heathland" architects who were Colt's regional contemporaries are so important and so influential on the evolution of golf course architecture later around the world is they were the ones who FIRST seemed to develop the FIRST theretofore highly natualized style of golf architecture INLAND in the world, and the fact that much of what they did was man-made rather than naturally occuring and that it looked so much more naturally occuring than anything else that was man-made that came before it in architecture inland anywhere in the world.

Due to that with their early natualized man-made Heathland model I think the Heathland architects and the style and modus they developed there was the best and most significant influence and link or transiton between the old seaside natural looking naturally occuring linksland architecture and courses and the natural looking man-made architecture INLAND that was to take place in the future by some others around the world.

Essentially, in my opinion, what the Heathland contingent was so significant for and why they were so influential on man-made inland architecture of the future (essentially the entire evolution of man-made architecture INLAND around the world) is they were the first to actually PULL THROUGH the look of seaside linksland NATURALLY-OCCURING formations into inland architecture with man-made methods!

I just don't think the idea and development of actually trying duplicate those natually occuring elements of the original seaside linksland and the look of it into inland man-made architecture can ever possibly be underestimated in the entire evolution and history of golf architecture worldwide!

« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 10:45:03 AM by TEPaul »

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2008, 10:39:26 AM »
It's also remarkable how prolific Colt was as an architect.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2008, 11:29:53 AM »
I don't know where I got this impression from my readings, but wasn't Colt born with gentleman or nobility type status? Is that accurate? When you press reports of his visits in America they almost read the same as when royalty was in town. I get the impression that there was no one in that era who came even close to Colt in terms of respectability.


Andrew Summerell

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2008, 05:33:43 PM »
In my opinion, looked at from a number of different vantage points to do with the entire evolution and development of golf architecture Colt should probably be in the top 2-4 of all time.
Who do you believe is number 1 ?

How many Colt courses have you played or walked ?

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2008, 08:27:27 PM »
I think what gave Colt the juice was how he basically thought out what amounted to a set of principles and then applied them. That's what I think gave him the ability to sustain excellence.

These I think were somewhat formulaic when he first developed them (and thus less like true principles) but later it seemed to me he broadened and deepened them -- made them like principles -- in at least one case (forced carries) reversing his previously-held view. I think the Haskell Ball led to that change.

Here it's interesting to think about how much MacKenzie might have gained from Colt but also vice versa. By the second decade both had developed views that on some facets of design were similar but on others differed. In some aspects one put forth a view while the other said nothing - at least, I couldn't find any record!

I like Colt very much and would be happy if I were confined to playing out my days on his courses alone.  That said, how fair it is to judge him by playing his courses today? The bunkering for one thing on many of his courses today looks nothing like the original.

And in the final analysis I do have a beef with him: flat greens! I have found a tameness to at least several greens per course of his.

I thought this was down to top dressing or limits of the technology back then. But then I learned he actually purposely designed 1-2 flat greens per course.

I like Colt very much despite that *personal preference* but then to see the greens at Woking or on a MacKenzie course -- it's like a revelation.

Mark

Sean_A

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2008, 02:15:26 AM »
I think what gave Colt the juice was how he basically thought out what amounted to a set of principles and then applied them. That's what I think gave him the ability to sustain excellence.

These I think were somewhat formulaic when he first developed them (and thus less like true principles) but later it seemed to me he broadened and deepened them -- made them like principles -- in at least one case (forced carries) reversing his previously-held view. I think the Haskell Ball led to that change.

Here it's interesting to think about how much MacKenzie might have gained from Colt but also vice versa. By the second decade both had developed views that on some facets of design were similar but on others differed. In some aspects one put forth a view while the other said nothing - at least, I couldn't find any record!

I like Colt very much and would be happy if I were confined to playing out my days on his courses alone.  That said, how fair it is to judge him by playing his courses today? The bunkering for one thing on many of his courses today looks nothing like the original.

And in the final analysis I do have a beef with him: flat greens! I have found a tameness to at least several greens per course of his.

I thought this was down to top dressing or limits of the technology back then. But then I learned he actually purposely designed 1-2 flat greens per course.

I like Colt very much despite that *personal preference* but then to see the greens at Woking or on a MacKenzie course -- it's like a revelation.

Mark

Mark

You may be right about "principles".  Its amazing how similar Colt courses are (of the ones I have played anyway).  There is a certain feel which reminds one of home (I get the same feeling when I see a Ross course), but perhaps he ran too high a risk of creating much of a muchness courses (just as Ross is accussed of).  This may be down to a certain aesthetic Colt aspired to - a very natural look.  On the other hand, when I see Fowler courses I am struck by how different they all feel - a trait I admire greatly.  It's difficult to explain, but I don't know of an archie that used the land any better than Fowler did.  Even though his courses look as though they belong on the land, he never quite measures up to Colt in making his courses look natural except for THe Berkshire.  Unless I am terribly mistaken, when I look at either the Red or Blue at the Berkshire I believe it is easy to mistake these for Colt's.  Perhaps that is because it came near the end of Fowler's career. Perhaps its down to the land.  Perhaps its down to Colt's influence. Perhaps its down to Simpson possibly being more involved than on some earlier works.   

I disagree with your flat green analysis unless you are comparing Colt to what I would call greens that have quite a bit of movement.  Woking is a great example for you to site because the greens have a lot of movement, but for the most part look as though they belong and more importantly they make sense with the surrounds.  This is my biggest problem with many wild like greens - they just don't make any sense from a visual stand point.   Its fine to get crazy once in a while, but the urge to splash out out too often needs to be restrained so far as I am concerned.  Maybe Colt stuck to his principles of aesthetics a bit too much for you where greens are concerned?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andrew Mitchell

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2008, 09:00:52 AM »
Does anyone know how to get hold of a copy of the Hawtree book "Colt & Co", which I understand is out of print?
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Mike Hendren

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2008, 11:36:37 AM »
Back in the day this site featured an Dead Architects Survivor Series which Colt won after Paul Turner jobbed Donald Ross in an early round.  I found Paul's arguments compelling.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Paul_Turner

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 04:39:45 PM »
Mike

You still loitering with intent I see!  And once again I have to inform you that actually Mack won (Colt second) and that the Ross Rule wasn't my idea.

As for Colt, well he was better than Crump ;)

I think it's pretty clear that Colt, his partners and construction team had the biggest impact in British architecture.  As others point out,  lots of varied courses over a very long career.

Note that Colt started very early.  He designed Rye (with Rolland) in 1894 and I'm fairly certain that he started redesigning Sunningdale Old pretty much from his hire date in 1901.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Stuart Hallett

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2008, 05:03:02 PM »
I think this question will always be debated simply because the majority of Colt courses are understated compared to Mac or Simpson. However, the seemingly flat greens often require local knowledge and I always noticed the exceptional surface drainage. The fairway bunkering is not very aggressive but surprisingly efficient thanks to the angles created and a coherent strategy that rarely strikes you the first time round.

And I would certainly agree with Paul, as good as Colt was, the Harris Bros. interpreted his plans and overcame site specific situations that Colt would never have seen before the works. I'm thinking of the variation of bunker depths for visibility and drainage on the same site, or of course on different sites. The green surrounds are often  another give away due to magnificent shaping of the whole green complex, approaches included. Colt & Co certainly had the skill to adapt to any site and create interest that worked for playing and maintenance. 

Without the chemistry of Colt and his loyal construction team, I'm sure the interpretations would be more bold but lacking in natural appearance.

Ian Andrew

Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2008, 02:47:04 PM »
Jon,

If you think strictly in terms of influence on the game - I would have to give the nod to Colt.

He brought us our earliest principles to work form and showed us ways to accomplish what we needed to get done. When you take the perspective that he and the other Heathland architects were among the earliest to use land manipulation to develop architectural strategies - you become stunned with how well much of his work holds up after all this time. His influence was world wide, from his associates through to the people who studied his work.

If we’re sticking to built form, I would choose Mackenzie. His ability to get greatness out of so many different sites leaves my head spinning. He did it so often – regardless of site time – and has so many courses in the top 10 that it is hard to ignore his skills and choose someone you may like more.

I was asked during a recent interview how I could have Donald Ross as sixth on my list when I was interviewing for my first Ross project. It was a much unexpected question to say the least. I laughed and said that just because we all may be personally attached to our favourite architects – it doesn’t mean we can’t step back and be objective for a change. I went through the strengths and criticism’s of Ross, but also touched upon the same with Colt and Mackenzie to make a point.

This area is so subjective – but if your try to objectively separate each – you find you like each a little more by breaking their work down another step further. I certainly learnt a lot from my list when I did it and respect many lesser name architects much more than I originally did.

Dan Moore

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2008, 03:30:14 PM »
I'm curious about Colt's involvement on site with his projects.   How much time would he spend on site?  Did he supervise the work himself or have trusted associates who handled construction?  Did his firm have their own construction crews? 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2008, 04:15:40 PM »
Just got back from a weekend trip to the south of France. Had the luck to be able to play Mandelieu Old Course which is a Colt designed in 1891. Awesome. Played 36 holes on both friday and saturday. Will try and write piece about the course when I find the time but will say that if you get the chance to play it then do. At 80 Euros for a day ticket on the weekend its a real bargin.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2008, 05:24:57 PM »
Ian

Fantastic post and makes me think that a principles-based approach is least likely to produce inherently-flawed tracks.  The idea being that principles tend to focus on the bones like routing and bunker positioning so that even when aging transfigures the skin (eg bunker aesthetics) the play of the course isn't diminished -- the functionality remains.

I am not sure of my opinion below but thought I'd throw it out there to see what you or anyone reading thinks:

For me MacKenzie took things to a different level as he was the first really to apply psychology and the subjectivity of experience to design.  For example his goal of of "greatest pleasure to the greatest number."  As we all have modernist sensibilities we forget how we see the world differently than say the Victorians; we take for granted phrases like MacKenzie's but time and again in his writings he notes his desire for design elements to evoke certain emotions such as joy and fear.  That's a subtle but significant break with the past.  There's a lot of Frank Lloyd Wright in him.

In fact he writes of the value of psychology to the architect; I think when he writes of "psychology" he means more: to understand how the mind processes visual inputs and then to design according to that understanding, but fundamentally with a view towards the impact of the physical on the emotional and the mental.  (Interestingly, many in critiquing a MacKenzie course will express that impact in terms of the physical appearance -- the skin, like the look of bunkers or the beauty of his greens -- even though the judgment fundamentally is emotional. (For example, "beauty" implies the thing you're looking at provokes an emotion of some sort, yes?)

Every architect today must think to a far greater degree in this way than those of a century ago -- that's down more to societal impacts not MacKenzie's, but still he deserves credit for being the first to think extensively in this manner.  (Lots of designers at the time may have made references to emotional and mental impacts; however, their writings do not go into the same depth or detail, nor do these impacts rise to the thematic and repetitive level they did in MacKenzie's writings.)

I think this is the great intersection -- the underlying connection -- of his two post-medical careers: military entrenchments and what came to be called "camouflage" and golf-course design. (Yes, they both should count as "careers," his contributions to camouflage were far beyond dilettantism in depth and beyond dalliance in length.)

A close reading of his texts in both areas confirms he saw the two as not inseparable but of a piece: both derived from the same fundamental "principles."  The only significant difference lay in the application of the principles.  For example, the appropriation of "nature's principles" to either hide something (military entrenchments) or reveal it (bunkering).  And of course in many cases the application converged to the same point: not to turn the manmade into the natural, as I think many tend to automatically think of it, which of course is impossible, but to design and build so as to give the manmade the appearance of the natural to the mind's eye.

Nature as a means to an end not as nature for its own sake.  That end being to provoke an emotional response...
Mark

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2008, 05:29:21 PM »
This thread has taken some interesting turns.



- From contemporary sources, Colt seems to have been the pre-eminent archie of the day. 

Ciao

Sean can you give examples of this?  I’ve long had that feeling but I can’t recall reading specific examples in original sources implying that at the time.  I wonder if we are reading things into this retrospectively. He was tremendously organised and industrious and I think the committee’s who employed him responded to that.



Jon W, can you enquire again as to when ‘Colt worked there.  1891 would make it one of the first 3 courses he worked on.  I’d love to see a more detailed report.
http://www.mandelieu.com/Leisure/golf/golf-course.htm
Let's make GCA grate again!

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Harry S. Colt the greatest architect ?
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2008, 08:16:43 PM »
I am yet to find a Colt course (or course he's touched) - I didn't go away taking something from his designs. One venue I just have to get back to is Sunningdale - boy those members are lucky....

Probably the best exponent of designing a high quality P3's and short P4 holes I have seen - along with Mackenzie.

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