[Matt Waterbury]

Furthermore, methinks this formula is a recipe for disaster. My son loves his 5 iron, which is 27 degrees. He calls it his "rescue wood". He easily hits it 190, and often nukes it well past 200. That being said, he could not play to a 30 handicap. The issue with him as I am sure it is with George, is the spray factor is not taken into account by this formula, nor are the short game skills.

Garland, I think that your statement highlights exactly the error many people are making in this calculation. It is not what distance you "can" hit your 5 iron given a cow pasture in front of you. It is what distance you should use a 5 iron from when shooting at a pin. In my mind this means that your son can certainly nuke a 5, but that's not the right number to use.

The best (and only) advice I ever got from a PGA Tour player was to swing only as hard as you can while hitting the ball consistently in the middle of the face, in the intended direction. Up to that point I considered my 5 iron my 204 yard club (and sprayed it). It is now my 185 yard club. Can I hit my 5 iron 200+ yards? Yes. What distance did I use for this calculation? 185. Gives ~6,700 yards, which is fine by me.

Cheerio,
Matt

[Kyle Henderson]

I hit my driver 280 to 290 when my mechanics are on, yet my 5 iron never goes more than 160 (40-60 yards less than the pros, albeit on a high trajectory). Hence, this rule works poorly in my case.

Personally, I choose my tees based on how badly I'm sparaying them. If it going where I'm aiming, 7200 yards isn't all that hard to manage. On the other hand...

[Jeff_Brauer]

At this moment, this thread and "Tech changes the game" thread are side by side.  Funny how tech has changed the pro game, but for the average Joe, not nearly so much.

I think we ought to get in the habit of making that distinction.

[Ken Moum]

That math gives my something just under 6,000 yards. And I find that the game is a hell of a lot more fun on courses that are in that area.

When I am playing reasonably well, I get plenty of pleasure and challenge from courses that are 6,000 to 6,200.

Beyond that, the fun quotient goes away pretty quickly.

K

[A.G._Crockett]

Some of the numbers here are just crazy.  We've got lots of people here who at least THINK they are routinely able to hit a 5 iron 200 yds. or farther.

Shotlink says that the average 5 iron on the PGA Tour is 185 off the deck, 197 off the tee on a par 3.  I play a LOT of golf, and with a lot of good golfers, and I have never seen a single player hit a 5 iron 200 yds on flat ground with no wind.  Not one!  (And that includes some guys who either did or now do play on Tour)

Nobody needs to defend themselves; I'm just amazed that GCA.com seems to be heavily populated by the longest hitters on our planet.  Who knew! 

[George Pazin]

AG -

Unlike Johnny Miller, I don't know my distances down to the half yard. I also am one of the purists (read: lazy guys) on the site who eyeballs yardages.

I do know that I've played enough to know that if I'm within a few steps of a 200 yard marker, I've been center-of-green high many times with a 5 iron. (It should also be noted that I've been standing near the 150 marker for my next shot almost as frequently. )

Club selection to me takes about a half a second, unless I am faced with vexing choices like those at Oakmont: trouble in front, take the additional club, trouble behind, take yardage club (or 1 less if trouble=death).

I've tried both the "take an extra club and swing smoothly" approach and the "go out next round and take an extra club or two on every approach shot" tactics that all the mags and books advise - it almost universally results in me being over the green with a tricky chip or pitch to a green sloping away from me.

Matt W -

Interesting advice. I can say that throttling back hasn't worked for me in the past, but maybe that awaits me in my golf future (if I ever get to play again). I wish I could say my problems were as simple as "swing within yourself", but alas they are much bigger.

[Lou_Duran]

Michael,

This must have come from the same guy who developed the charts showing that at 5'10" I should weigh 150-160 lbs, and set me off on a guilt trip since the 7th grade.  By his calculations I should be playing a course no longer than 6,000 to 6,300 yards.  My mindset does not equate fun with dumbing down the test so I can shoot lower scores.  For the most part, as long as I can reach 16+ holes on a course with reasonably hit shots, then I am playing the right yardage. 

[Tom Huckaby]

AG:  you've heard the story about the great Irish pro Christy O'Connor Sr., right?  (At least I recall it was Sr.  Might have been Junior.)  Anyway, a playing partner was giving him crap because on a par three, he hit the green with a 5 iron while Christy hit a 3 (or something like that).  Christy then proceeded to take all clubs 2 iron to SW and hit the same green with each... proving that what matters is not what club one CAN hit onto a green, but what club he DOES hit onto a green.

And therein lies the secret of club choice for approaches.  Matt Ward has it nailed also, I think.  I do believe a common mistake many make is that they hit the club they CAN get to a distance, not the one they WILL.  They play for their best strike, not their average.

And no offense to you George, but it seems to me that's what you're doing.  I read that you have tried taking less club and the result has been you've gone long... But I have to believe the instances of that are less than the instances of coming up short, or otherwise foozleing the shot, no?

I've played this way for years - that is, playing for my average strike rather than my best - and it has always worked well.  I too go long from time to time... but I hit a lot of greens and also rarely hit a decent strike that mysteriously comes up short.  Meanwhile most of my playing partners are perplexed when their 5iron from 200 comes up 30 yards short.

TH

[A.G._Crockett]

I've played this way for years - that is, playing for my average strike rather than my best - and it has always worked well.  I too go long from time to time... but I hit a lot of greens and also rarely hit a decent strike that mysteriously comes up short.  Meanwhile most of my playing partners are perplexed when their 5iron from 200 comes up 30 yards short.

TH

Tom,
If you are playing with guys who think they are going to hit their 5 iron 200 yds., can I be your partner, or at least back you for a percentage of your winnings?  A club golfer who is trying to swing a 5 iron hard enough to hit it 200 yds., or even thinks he can hit it that far, has the potential to be a major-league pigeon!

I couldn't hit a 5 iron 200 yds. on the main runway at the airport, for crying out loud!  With the wind!

[George Pazin]

And no offense to you George, but it seems to me that's what you're doing.  I read that you have tried taking less club and the result has been you've gone long... But I have to believe the instances of that are less than the instances of coming up short, or otherwise foozleing the shot, no?

No offense taken. If we ever get to tee it up, you will see you are wrong regarding what I'm doing.

 

Lest anyone miss the point of my posts, they are in no way to brag about how far I can hit a 5 iron. There is nothing I would brag about in my game, save for my speedy play.

My point is that formulas don't work and much of the logic behind the multiple tee approach is based on erroneous assumptions.

I played a round with an older Irish gentleman at my local muni 10 years ago, when I was hitting the ball pretty solid. I didn't even carry woods in my bag and I consistently outdrove him, my 3 and 4 irons against his 3 wood. We probably hit a similar number of greens, him with his 3 wood again, me with mostly short irons (about a 6300 yard course from the tees we played). He beat me by 17 shots, chipping and 1 putting for par on damn nearly every hole, while I chipped and 2 putted for bogey on damn near every hole.

Does someone want to try to make the case that I should play from tees 800 yards longer than my Irish friend?

[Tom Huckaby]

AGC:

More what I was saying was I wouldn't base the comparison on what you see the pros do, or what shotlink says.  Those gents, doing this for a living, rarely TRY to hit any irons as far as they can, and each could likely do what Christy O'Connor did on any par three.  So if you refuse to believe a guy like George CAN hit a 5iron 200 yards because you say the pros cannot, well... I think the latter part of that logic is faulty.

To that end, I also believe most amateurs do greatly overestimate the lengths they hit the ball... having done measurement, I have seen this in action.

So I mean not to pick on George.  I believe he CAN hit a 5iron 200 yards.  I have also seen others who can do so, high and low handicappers.  

But doing it once doesn't mean doing it very often.

So yes, the ones who routinely do select 5iron as their club from 200 are usually fine betting fodder.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

George - for at least one or two rounds - if you ever get to do such, try it "my" way and hit 1-2 clubs more than you think you should.  IE, hit 3 or 4iron from 200.   Then count the number of instances you end up short or wildly off-line (for whatever reason) vs. the times you go long.

If the latter is greater than the former, then I will bow and say you are the exception to an otherwise strong rule.

But it not, well.....

See, that's the point.  Mis-hits count in this, very much so.

TH

[George Pazin]

As I said before, maybe the combination of eyeballing distances and not having ShotLink (tm) there to tell me every distance means my 200 is more like 190 or 193 or whatever. I can even do it relatively consistently, at least as consistently as I can do anything in this crazy game.

Pros CAN hit 5 irons 230 or even longer if they want to - those average numbers are highly misleading.

Here is one of the problems I see with the Huckaby approach, as least as it applies to me: I rarely hit my 5 iron 30 yards short. It's either pin high, 5ish yards long or short, or topped 50 yards (and of course all of these scenarios can be way left or right). I don't play or practice enough to eliminate that topped shot, and it absolutely kills me.

[Tom Huckaby]

George:  understood.  I firmly believe that "my" approach would help eliminate the tops, and therein lies the key.

In any case your point re Pros is exactly what I tried to say to AGC. 

TH

[George Pazin]

George:  understood.  I firmly believe that "my" approach would help eliminate the tops, and therein lies the key.

Did I forget to mention that I top my 3 iron as well?

At any rate, I think I figured out my problem and am working on correcting it - look out Tiger!

[Richard Choi]

I get routinely beat my shorter hitting friends, but I still rather play from the longer tees (around 6600).

Why? Because my score really does not improve when I play from shorter tees. Most of my problems come from the short game and I can flub my chips and three putt all day long from either white tees or blue tees.

At least when I play from the blue tees I have a bit more advantage compared to my short hitting friends.

[A.G._Crockett]

Pros CAN hit 5 irons 230 or even longer if they want to - those average numbers are highly misleading.

George and Tom,
I'll assume you are right and that SOME pros can hit a 5 iron 230 when they want to, though I believe that number to be much, much lower than the public believes.  (I'm a 6 handicap and carry my 5 iron 175; I've never played with anybody who can hit a 5 iron 55 yards farther than I can!  That's 55 yards!  But I digress...)

That said, I don't think averages are misleading at all in this case.  Shotlink is based on a mountain of data, and if the Shotlink average for pros off the fairway is 185, then for every 230 yd. shot, there has to be one of 140 yds.  While I'm sure there are conditions or particular shots that call for a 140 yd. 5 iron by a tour pro, I would think that would be exceedingly rare, given that you would be talking about a 3 to 4 club difference.  I don't think Shotlink counts a bump and run from just off the green or punch-outs from the woods as a "5 iron" even if that was the club used for that shot, so for every tour pro that averages 205 with their 5 iron, there has to be one that averages only 165!  I don't believe there is a single tour pro using/averaging a club MORE than I hit, so I don't think there are very many using/averaging 3 clubs LESS than I hit, either.  I think the Shotlink average shows what it purports to show; an average within a pretty tight dispersion.

My point?  The numbers reported here are wildly overestimated, and I don't mean by George P.  Read the thread from the beginning and look at what people say they are doing.

[Tom Huckaby]

AGC:

I agree that many overestimate their distances; in fact I already said so herein.

I also do believe that pretty much any average-length pro COULD hit a 5iron well over 200 yards if that was his goal.  Shotlink is not measuring shots anything like that, but rather shots played in competitive play, generally under control, generally with a goal toward hitting a target rather than impressing anyone with strength.

Thus I continue to believe that disbelieving that anyone in this thread can hit a 5iron 200 yards because you believe the pros cannot is indeed faulty logic.

But I've now said this three different ways.  This is the last try.  If you don't get it, then that's cool.

Because in the end we do agree that most do overestimate their yardages, which I know is the crux of your point anyway.

TH

[Brad Tufts]

I did the math, and it generally works out for me.  185 x 36 = 6660.  I generally shoot for tees in the 6500-6800 range.

I also have the same issue as you Richard C., as I still shoot the same score from 6200 than I would from further back.

My handicap says I should be playing the tips wherever I go regardless of distance, but I have much more fun playing from 6500-6800.  I'm not a short hitter by any stretch, but I'm not a bomber.

[Michael Moore]

his college coach - "How far do you hit your five iron?"

J.B. Holmes - "As far as I want."

[Tom Huckaby]

his college coach - "How far do you hit your five iron?"

J.B. Holmes - "As far as I want."

EXACTLY!

[George Pazin]

My point?  The numbers reported here are wildly overestimated, and I don't mean by George P.  Read the thread from the beginning and look at what people say they are doing.

Just out of curiosity, what figure would you estimate the overestimating at?

P.S. I once saw an 18 year old kid hit a 5 iron that I flat out wouldn't have believed if I hadn't been standing right next to him when he hit it. I regret not pacing it off, but it was well over 200 yards, significantly uphill (that's a western PA hill, not one of those clever little things that the coastal folks consider hills ), out of moderate rough - the ball had settled, it wasn't sitting up for a flyer. He ripped a 5 iron that flew higher than any wedge I've ever hit all the way uphill and landed it on the green. It was awesome, I have never anything like that before or since.

[A.G._Crockett]

My point?  The numbers reported here are wildly overestimated, and I don't mean by George P.  Read the thread from the beginning and look at what people say they are doing.

Just out of curiosity, what figure would you estimate the overestimating at?

P.S. I once saw an 18 year old kid hit a 5 iron that I flat out wouldn't have believed if I hadn't been standing right next to him when he hit it. I regret not pacing it off, but it was well over 200 yards, significantly uphill (that's a western PA hill, not one of those clever little things that the coastal folks consider hills ), out of moderate rough - the ball had settled, it wasn't sitting up for a flyer. He ripped a 5 iron that flew higher than any wedge I've ever hit all the way uphill and landed it on the green. It was awesome, I have never anything like that before or since.

Huh?

[George Pazin]

Do you think we're off by 5 yards? 15? 30?

Me, personally, I don't even go by distances, I go by ranges. For example, if I have just over 150, I'm hitting 8, just under, probably 9, barring things like water fronting the green, or a cavernous drop behind the green. So what's my 150 club? Depends on the green complex, wind, stance, etc., and how I'm hitting it that day.

[A.G._Crockett]

AGC:

I agree that many overestimate their distances; in fact I already said so herein.

I also do believe that pretty much any average-length pro COULD hit a 5iron well over 200 yards if that was his goal.  Shotlink is not measuring shots anything like that, but rather shots played in competitive play, generally under control, generally with a goal toward hitting a target rather than impressing anyone with strength.

Thus I continue to believe that disbelieving that anyone in this thread can hit a 5iron 200 yards because you believe the pros cannot is indeed faulty logic.

But I've now said this three different ways.  This is the last try.  If you don't get it, then that's cool.

Because in the end we do agree that most do overestimate their yardages, which I know is the crux of your point anyway.

TH

Tom,
I don't think we really disagree at all, at least in any meaningful way for this thread.  And for the record, I DO believe that pros can hit a 5 iron over 200 yards, but choose not to.

I guess that what I'm saying (poorly, apparently) is that, like the 300 yd. drive, the 200 yd. 5 iron is something that many claim to either claim to be able to do, or claim to see lots of other amateurs doing.  My experience has been very much the contrary; I know a very, very small handful of guys who can actually hit it 300 yds. (and then only on occasion) and even fewer who can hit a 5 iron 200 yds.  The latter group is a subset of the former, BTW, and they tend to be very good golfers.  I see few, if any, high handicappers with the ability to actually hit the ball a long way even sometimes.

The human body just isn't set up to move a golf club that fast, the freaks of nature that play professionally aside.  In most cases, the people that have the ability to move the club at a rate that can make a golf ball go 300 yds. off the driver or 200 yds. off the 5 iron also possess the ability to become relatively consistent.  I think that the people that you are talking about in this thread who say they can hit a 5 iron 200 yds. actually cannot; they might top out at 185 or so, and ought to be trying for more like 170.  You, on the other hand, are serious enough about your game to know EXACTLY what happens to your control if you try to hit a 5 iron even 10 yds. farther than normal, and you almost never make that mistake.

I guess my contention is not that many golfers just overestimate their average, but overestimate their maximum as well.  But enough of a thread hijack for a relatively minor point.  I will continue to play courses in the 6500-6700 yd range when possible, because I, like you, know my limitations all too well.

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