[Melvyn Morrow]

With reference to requests from an earlier post on Askernish, Ralph
has make the following statement

"I had initially based all our forecasts of visitors coming to South Uist beginning during 2009,  but due to the large amounts of requests for information on playing Askernish Old we have arranged for a travel agent to advise players coming from home and abroad for visits this season. Their name is Scotia Travel www.scotiatravel.com and they already have the expertise in arranging golf packages all over Scotland but especially diverse destinations such as Machrie and Machrahanish. They will organise trips to Askernish for clients and will arrange everything from flights to accommodation etc etc. Askernish will feature on their website as from the 28th April giving prospective visitors an idea of prices etc. If anybody is still unsure about travel arrangements etc then please contact the club directly at rthomp4521@btinternet.com  and we will be delighted to offer our advice. Our official opening date is the 22nd August 2008 but the course is open for play from May onwards. We have put the opening date back till August to give the greens time to mature but anybody visiting before then will be treated to a unique golf course with a selection of amazing holes against a backdrop of stunning beauty. We will be delighted to welcome golfers of any standard who appreciate what proper links golf should be.

As anybody who has been involved in the project knows, the ideals of the club committee were to recreate the original Old Tom Morris course back to its former glory whist maintaining the design principles and techniques used in 1891. This has always been our goal and the financial side of the project has always been of secondary importance. In completing the course cold reality steps in and we now need to finance the maintenance and improvements that we envisage in the next few years, and although we would ideally like a corporate sponsor  (anybody out there?) to assist us I have had to drift back down from cloud nine back to the real world and come up with some hard figures. On the website I see a figure of £1,000,000 per annum mentioned in several places. I believe a bit of "journalistic licence" was used to create this figure but nevertheless it sets an intriguing target. After researching the figures of places like Machrie and Machrahanish I had set us a fairly conservative target of 1200 - 1500 visitors per season by 2012. Green fees will be between £40 - £50 per round and if they average two rounds per person then this will bring in approximately £120,000. Visit Scotland estimates that the average golfer visiting Scotland spends an average of fifteen times his green fees on entertainment , travel etc etc etc. We do not have the infrastructure in place (yet) to take full advantage of this but even  if we allow for half this estimate then we are at the £1,000,000 total income to the island per annum. The journalist responsible was probably therefore not far off the mark. Askernish Golf Club is registered as a Community Interest Company which is committed to returning any excess income back into the community purse to hopefully create more employment opportunities within the island.

We are fully aware that the next few years are going to be difficult financial hurdle but one we are prepared for. If anyone knows of any corporate body / individual who can help us through the next few years please put them in touch. We are also still offering life memberships and country memberships at greatly reduced rates to help finance the project and if anybody is interested in supporting "the most natural golf course in the world" then please get in touch via the website."

Ralph Thompson

Askernish Web Site www.askernishgolfclub.com/

[Tom_Doak]

Melvyn:

Thanks for posting that.  I'll really try to make the visit next time I am over to Scotland, if the short-hop airfare is reasonable.

The projection of 12-15 times spending is a pretty optimistic one in general, but I'm sure that includes airfares and rental cars and nobody on South Uist is going to see any of THAT money.  Hopefully, though, it will be a bonanza for the B&B operators and the restaurants and that in itself would be reason to wish for success.

I do worry about his statement that the next few years are going to be a "difficult financial hurdle" and wonder why?

[Sean_A]

I tell ya, I am very keen on this project and I wish them every success.  I enquired about membership expecting it to be maybe £200 a year tops for a limited number of people and time.  I think they quoted me £2500 for life.  I don't know about others, but I lost interest in a hurry at that price.  I wonder if they aren't placing themselves out of the market a bit when one considers country memberships at low key clubs are fairly cheap and the odds of going to S Uist  fairly often aren't very high.  I thought the course was meant to be bare bones in its construction and maintenance - you, know, old time golf.  Now I hear they are talking about £40 green fees.  What is the story? 

I know Westward Ho! has country and overseas members that don't really get their money's worth even at cheap rates, but guys stick on because they want to support the idea which RND represents.  It seems odd that Askernish wouldn't be looking for that same sort of support.

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

At the end of the day you have to decide what you want, what exactly you are looking for and ultimately was it value for money. But you can’t answer the latter until you travel to South Uist and play a round.

As for Membership, from memory that starts from under £200 with £2,500 for life membership. IMHO the £40 Green Fees reflect the experience on offer. I expect some will find fault but many will value the fun and challenge of the course and the Outer Hebrides.

The choice is yours but try it before finally making up your mind. Also, if possible give yourself time to enjoy yourself, relax and stay a few days to savour the overall experience.

[Jason McNamara]

By way of comparison, Sean, I think Carne was at US$5000 (life mem.) a few yrs back, and then may have gone up to $7500.  Just think of Oban - Lochboisdale as rather like Limerick - Belmullet, except in the former case CalMac does the driving for you.     Besides, Glencruitten would totally be your kind of course on the way to Askernish.  Check out http://www.obangolf.com/

Melvyn, thanks for the update.  Hopefully the witenagemot will sort out all the membership categories shortly and make them available on the web page - that's the one page that doesn't seem to work at present.

As for corporate sponsorship... given the events in Aberdeenshire, plus a certain money man's familial connections to the Western Isles, have you given any thought to Trump - South Uist?   

[Sean_A]

Sean

At the end of the day you have to decide what you want, what exactly you are looking for and ultimately was it value for money. But you can’t answer the latter until you travel to South Uist and play a round.

As for Membership, from memory that starts from under £200 with £2,500 for life membership. IMHO the £40 Green Fees reflect the experience on offer. I expect some will find fault but many will value the fun and challenge of the course and the Outer Hebrides.

The choice is yours but try it before finally making up your mind. Also, if possible give yourself time to enjoy yourself, relax and stay a few days to savour the overall experience.

Melvyn

I don't know about any other category of membership.  I wasn't quoted those prices.  Additionally, I am not finding fault with the green fee.  I am trying to understand how their model of "old time" golf gels with a £40 green fee. 

I don't think I would ever get value for money by joining Askernish, hence my point about appealing to a sense of history and trying to be part of recreating and preserving (like in the case of Westward Ho!) a bit of history. 

Jason

Carne was a very different proposition in how the course was marketed.  There was no history to preserve.  Its ironic that now they are pushing the Hackett angle as his reputation has grown since his death and the awareness of archies has risen. 

Carne's Lifetime Membership is for a proven course that has a deservedly great reputation.   I believe when I first looked into Carne the membership deal was considerably lower than 5000 Euros.  The price has gone up with the rise of the reputation, the desire to build a further 9 holes and to complete the proshop/clubhouse.  It took Carne 20 years to get to the point where they could justify a 5000 Euro Lifetime Membership.   I don't know what they charge these days.  Regardless, I greatly admire how the club started, its rise to prominence and think they are thoroughly deserving.  I am sure luck played its part, but from perspective, greed has never taken over and the green fee is still very reasonable considering the courses fame.  I will be playing two games on weekend in high season for 70 Euros.  You will travel a very long distance to beat those prices.   

If Askernish is anywhere near the quality of Carne and if it has the backing and efforts of the locals I expect it will be a success so long as "success" isn't measured too stringently in terms of Pounds.

Ciao 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

To obtain the maximum enjoyment you need to approach Askernish with a totally open mind. Don’t go with high expectations, but with a mind to enjoy the challenge and experience a golf course as it was in the early days of golf.

Play the course, then and only then will you be able to decide if it was value for money. In my humble opinion money has nothing to do with it, it does not even come into the equation, it’s just all about golf, great surroundings and the majesty of the whole experience.

[Sean_A]

Sean

To obtain the maximum enjoyment you need to approach Askernish with a totally open mind. Don’t go with high expectations, but with a mind to enjoy the challenge and experience a golf course as it was in the early days of golf.

Play the course, then and only then will you be able to decide if it was value for money. In my humble opinion money has nothing to do with it, it does not even come into the equation, it’s just all about golf, great surroundings and the majesty of the whole experience.

Melvyn

With respect, money is always important where golf is concerned.  Golf is an expensive past time.  It takes money to build, maintain and market a course.  It takes money to travel and pay the green fee.   

You are missing the point concerning value for money.  I am referring to the Life Membership.  There is little chance that I could ever consider £2500 up front good value for a course that I will rarely see.  That isn't to say that a £40 green fee may not be a good deal - I don't know.  I am merely enquiring as to the apparent disconnect between what I perceive to be the marketing of "old time" (ie part of old time golf idea is that it is cheap) golf and the £40 green fee/£2500 Life Membership.  My intention is not to get into any grand debate.  I am only hoping to gain further insight as to the strategy of the club and or owners.   

Ciao

 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

I understand your point, it’s just that I am approaching it form an average golfer’s point of view i.e. perhaps playing the course from time to time when I am in the area (West cost of Scotland).

As for life membership cost, Ralph would be the person to ask. My understanding is that it was one of the ways of raising money for the
project. If I lived in the area and intended to play a dozen times a year
I would consider it value for money.

Ultimately, money is relative to the individual, hence why we have Hotels
that charge £3,000 per night plus. I would not pay that, but perhaps if I suddenly inherited £5 million, it may not worry me. Did I really just write that? Two weeks at that price and I could afford one of the new Jaguars, but with £5 million I could have both and much more.   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean


I have re read your comments and keep coming back to your statement i.e. marketing of ‘old time’ (ie part of old time golf idea is that it is cheap) golf and the £40 green fee/£2500 Life Membership.

I’m really not certain I fully understand you. Surely what is being marked is the reconstruction of Old Tom’s 18 hole course, as close as it can be taken to its original concept. To give Golfers the opportunity to play a nineteen century links course as it was intended (allowing for natural erosion). I don’t associate old with cheap. One of Old Tom clubs sold last year for £70,000, an original postcard of Old Tom went for £1,400 a few months ago. An old vintage Rolls is worth a fortune. Most of the early clubs and course were owned by the Landed Gentry i.e  Askernisk - Lady Cathcart of Cluny Estates, Earl of Aberdeen – Tarland, Cruden Bay by the Earl of Errol and Skibo Castle by Carnegie. I am just confused when you mention that old time golf idea is that it is cheap.

 

[Sean_A]

Sean


I have re read your comments and keep coming back to your statement i.e. marketing of ‘old time’ (ie part of old time golf idea is that it is cheap) golf and the £40 green fee/£2500 Life Membership.

I’m really not certain I fully understand you. Surely what is being marked is the reconstruction of Old Tom’s 18 hole course, as close as it can be taken to its original concept. To give Golfers the opportunity to play a nineteen century links course as it was intended (allowing for natural erosion). I don’t associate old with cheap. One of Old Tom clubs sold last year for £70,000, an original postcard of Old Tom went for £1,400 a few months ago. An old vintage Rolls is worth a fortune. Most of the early clubs and course were owned by the Landed Gentry i.e  Askernisk - Lady Cathcart of Cluny Estates, Earl of Aberdeen – Tarland, Cruden Bay by the Earl of Errol and Skibo Castle by Carnegie. I am just confused when you mention that old time golf idea is that it is cheap.

Melvyn

Perhaps I am wrong.  I was under the impression that the course was going to be short (originalish yardage) and rather crude in terms of its maintenance relative to today's standard.  In other words, low maintenance and low overheads.  Hence the reason I expected a much lower green fee - say in the region of what Musselburgh Old charges.  I may be dreaming because many of the outstanding back water courses which are known for their charm rather than conditioning have raised prices to the £40-50 region because they have reputations which can support the increases.  I also understand that to a certain extent, because of their location  and relative lack of competition in the area, that the two Macs can inflate their prices somewhat.  Many travellers aren't going to be too concerned if the green fee is £25 or £50 so long as things don't get out of control or if the accomodation is too expensive.  Perhaps Askernisk is working on the same premise, but I would stress that it isn't a proven product.  Guys like me are attracted to the place because of Old Tom and my love of old fashioned golf, but even I am a bit guarded. 

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

Sean,

I too discern the cognitive dissonance of which you speak but when making a business decision as to pricing a round of golf at Askernish the club would IMO be foolish to leave money on the table by some sort of throwback pricing of five or ten pounds just to match the general tenor of the enterprise. Unlike perhaps a course on the mainland in the vicinity of large number of holiday visitors (Musselburgh Old) any large number of rounds played at Askernish are going to be played by people who travel there to play the course.

A difference between 50 pounds and 5 pounds might affect how many rounds a purposeful visitor chooses to play during a given 2-3 day stay but taking into account the travel time and expense involved it's inconceivable that someone might make the trip (at a cost of a few hundred) to play the course cheaply but would not make the trip at the higher price. Even if a handful of price-sensitive purists stay away I think it comes down to whether the club would rather see 2,000 rounds from 1,000 visitors at something like 40 pounds versus maybe 2,500 rounds from 1,050 visitors at 10 pounds. The rational choice seems obvious.

I think it's the concept of a rational pricing decision that is at the root of your objection. The mixture of idealistic "good old days" intentions and hard-minded income maximization seems a bit incongruous but then again this is the 21st century.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I too discern the cognitive dissonance of which you speak but when making a business decision as to pricing a round of golf at Askernish the club would IMO be foolish to leave money on the table by some sort of throwback pricing of five or ten pounds just to match the general tenor of the enterprise. Unlike perhaps a course on the mainland in the vicinity of large number of holiday visitors (Musselburgh Old) any large number of rounds played at Askernish are going to be played by people who travel there to play the course.

A difference between 50 pounds and 5 pounds might affect how many rounds a purposeful visitor chooses to play during a given 2-3 day stay but taking into account the travel time and expense involved it's inconceivable that someone might make the trip (at a cost of a few hundred) to play the course cheaply but would not make the trip at the higher price. Even if a handful of price-sensitive purists stay away I think it comes down to whether the club would rather see 2,000 rounds from 1,000 visitors at something like 40 pounds versus maybe 2,500 rounds from 1,050 visitors at 10 pounds. The rational choice seems obvious.

I think it's the concept of a rational pricing decision that is at the root of your objection. The mixture of idealistic "good old days" intentions and hard-minded income maximization seems a bit incongruous but then again this is the 21st century.

Brent

If you reread my last post you will see that I covered and agreed with your sentiments concerning pricing.  However, if we are correct, I can't help noticing that contrary to Melvyn's assertion, money is important where this project is concerned. 

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

It would seem, from this distance at least, that as the project progresses the importance of the money inexolerably increases. Initially the "million pound" misquote concocted by a reporter was laughed off by those involved with the enterprise. In the most recent quote they're coming around to believing that perhaps it's a worthwhile goal.

As I say, this is the 21st century. Everything must inevitably be "monetized" to one extent or another.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

I have never said that money is not important. Money is important in running a course.   No matter where in the world

I do say…

As in all things the pleasure we derive is the measurement we use to equate value for money. To enjoy the game, that is the untimely goal, if it costs £10, £40, £120 it has no bearing on the game. That only figures if we have not enjoyed the round.

I have never complained about Green Fees, but I have moaned if I had a poor game. In the end I have a choice, if I want to play the course, I pay the Green Fees.

I have not been on TOC since my father died in 1977, nothing to do with the cost.   

[Brad Tufts]

How about some pictures?  The website still has the computer-generated pics of potential holes only...

I'd be interested to see what it actually is looking like...

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean,

Surely the Life Memberships are designed to fund the project and will appeal to those who want to buy into the whole concept, is it value? Well for those who wish to be involved in a golfing legacy and have some enjoyment how do you value it.

It would be foolish to market country/overseas annual membership until the facility is open for play, who would buy a 12 month membership for a close facility? I'm sure an annual membership will be offered when the course opens.

Chappers

[Adrian_Stiff]

This is a very interesting project to follow, I keep thinking it needs an angle to work but I cant really think of one. The obstacle is not the £40 green fee but the £100 to get there. Sean, the £2500 life time membership ( I am presuming this is the overseas rate ) seems good value at 62 x the green fee, but ofcourse I understand exactly where you are coming from, you are likely to play every 3-5 years perhaps. I am just wondering if a £250 lifetime payment with a half price green fee might get 10 times as many takers, people 'like' the idea of being a 'member' . I think I'd do it.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ralph has just e-mail me the following, which might  be of interest


‘Travel and Leisure golf will be issued within the next fortnight. There is a major article on Askernish by John Garrity with some amazing photographs’.

‘We have worked out a cheap country membership ( £125) which will give golfers unlimited golf for two visits per year. A membership form will be available on the website this weekend’.


I hope this helps

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Surely the Life Memberships are designed to fund the project and will appeal to those who want to buy into the whole concept, is it value? Well for those who wish to be involved in a golfing legacy and have some enjoyment how do you value it.

It would be foolish to market country/overseas annual membership until the facility is open for play, who would buy a 12 month membership for a close facility? I'm sure an annual membership will be offered when the course opens.

Chappers

Chappers

I fully understand that £2500 Life Memberships are designed to fund further work.  However, I question if its a viable product at that price.  Most clubs which offer a Lifetime Membership do so to raise cash and I think the ones which are a proven product will usually fare better than unknown products.  I would have thought that in seeking memberships for this sort of thing that a much lower amount would suffice in the hopes of attracting significant numbers.  I would also have thought that a £25 green fee would be more the target - though this is less crucial.  ,

I am saying this from the point of view as someone quite keen on the project and as one who has joined two clubs already as a country member.  One of which I remain a member mainly because I fully support what the club stands for.  If they are struggling to convince me then who is their core market?  Perhaps I am wrong and they are looking for a different sort of customer and from what I can tell it is a corporate sponsor.  As I said before, it took Carne 20 years to get in the position they are in now.  One has to walk before he can run.

Ciao

[Jason McNamara]

Hi Sean -

I understand where you are coming from re Carne, though I would -guess- that most of those folks who became life members there did not look at it in terms of # of rounds required to recoup original investment.  There's a small (but perhaps sufficiently numerous - we shall see) group of golfers who will plunk down $5K to support the rebirth of an OTM course, even if they only get there once.  For them, the value is not in making sure they get their 62.5 rounds @ £40 each.

As for £25...  Stornoway is £20 for its 5200 yds (Askernish will be 6400, iirc).  In other remote areas of Scotland, £25 buys you Cullen, Hopeman, Dunaverty, and Wick.  (Also Merchants of Edinburgh, fwiw.)  Again it's another guess, but the folks at Askernish probably want to make sure the prices are NOT too similar to those at Stornoway.  Besides, if Stornoway were able to get back the land of their original course (lost to a WW2 airfield) and establish conclusively that OTM was also involved there, I wager they would charge more than £20 as well.

[Brian_Ewen]

http://www.stornowaygazette.co.uk/news/Grand-opening-for-Askernish-Golf.4372551.jp

CELTIC legend and keen golfer Kenny Dalglish will take on his role as honorary president of Askernish Golf Club in a fortnight, at the official opening of the Old Tom Morris course.
First laid out by the legendary golf course architect in 1891, the course has recently been restored to its original position under the guidance of Master Greensman Gordon Irvine and Architect Martin Ebert using entirely traditional design principles.
Askernish Golf Club and Storas Uibhist will be hosting a live webcast of proceedings from the Golf Course, supported by Connected Communities.
The opening is to take place in Askernish on Friday August 22 from 9.30am onwards.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Thanks Brian


After three years of hard work the Team at Askernish are just about ready to re-open one of the links courses not played upon since the 1930. What they have achieved is a credit to all involved and I believe the golfing world owes them a great deal of thanks not just for re-opening a window into our golfing past but for actually allowing modern golfers to experience an early course  more or less as laid out by Old Tom Morris in 1891.

To those of you who play golf over the pond, you are in for a thrilling challenge but just a word of advice – come with an open mind, play the course and adjust your game to suite the environment. After your game remember that those that came before you (for the first 15 years or so) played originally with Hickory Clubs and the Gutta Percha balls. IMHO you will quickly come to admire their courage and appreciate the qualities of the original game as played in 19th Century Scotland.

To all those who visit our shores each year, I believe it is worth a trip to Askernish, it will not disappoint but remember play the course and not your normal game. 

For those that are interested in history and like to know information on golf courses the following is another article, this time regards the official opening of the new course commissioned by Lady Cathcart. The article is dated 29th August 1891and reads as follows:-

THE NEW GOLF COURSE AT ASKERNISH, SOUTH UIST.—The new course was opened on Saturday, the 29th ult., with a foursome between Mr. Paterson, of Askernish, factor for Lady Gordon Cathcart, who had for partner Mr William M'Lean, of Milton, and Mr. Kenneth MacLeod and Mr. David M'Jerrow, Lochboisdale Hotel. The game, which was a close one throughout, ended in a lie—eight holes falling to each side, with two halved. The bright, pleasant day and the closeness of the match combined to make the opening game enjoyable alike for players and spectators. The new green, which is situated on the Machar between the farms of Askernish and Milton on the one hand, and the sea on the other, has the distinctive feature of being the most westerly in Great Britain. The course has been laid out, with admirable regard to its great capabilities, by Tom Morris, of St, Andrews. The short crisp turf, the diverse character of the holes, and the variety and form of the bunkers and hazards, together form what is probably the most natural Golf course in the kingdom. Added to these, the bracing air of the Atlantic, with the bold outlines of Barra Head in the foreground and a glimpse of “ lone " St. Kilda in the far distance, give to the South Uist course a picturesqueness and character peculiarly its own.


To all those who love golf, I encourage you to play Askernish – it is an experience not worth missing – details re the course and travel info are on their new web site www.askernishgolfclub.com

Bill, I think you would enjoy a round with Ralph Thompson (their Chairman). Not only will it be fun but put the colour back into your cheeks!

[Forrest Richardson]

I believe the money concern has most to do with the remote nature of the area. I had to really work to get there. When I visited (March 08) it was very rough, but one could see the potential and it only took a bit of Summer to make things come to life. Clearly though — the far-off location and short season is among its drawbacks. Askernish will have members and play, but 98% of it will come from mainland Scotland (or further) in my opinion. Locals will not have to pay much, if at all based on the public nature of the land.

Sand will be a tremendous issue as it blows fiercely in this locale.  The great par-3 11th (I believe that is correct) will be continually at the mercy of the wind and sea. Sand can cover the area (10, 11, 12, etc.) in a very shot time when the wind howls.  Already there was some erosion from the sea that needed to be repaired and reinforced behind the green.

For anyone visiting recently...Did Ralph take the advice to expand the 11th green well right into the dip that served as an approach? I hope he does as this would make the green the largest on the course and would make a terrific hole even better with as much as a 40-yard differentiation in length...just based on the green.

All-in-all Askernish is a terrific story made wonderful by the great people involved. The other perspective of the remote-ness is that it also adds to the adventure and charm. I am hopeful that the recent attention will swell, and that Askernish will enjoy a newfound economic base from curious golfers from all over.

[Forrest Richardson]

Today's article in The Scotsman:

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Open-again-after-117-years.4417240.jp

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