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Edwin Roald

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Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« on: April 17, 2008, 07:28:51 AM »
Friends,

Does anyone on here know what kind of construction drawings, plans or documents Alister Mackenzie produced for Augusta National? I am aware that Mr. Miller was his man on site and that the course was completed in a very short time. I am interested in Mackenzie's ability to communicate his vision.

James Boon

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2008, 08:58:14 AM »
Edwin,

Not sure if you have read David Owen's book "The Making of the Masters", but if not Owen states:

"MacKenzie was an artist. His drawings of the course were sometimes suggestive rather than explicit - because, as he explained to (Clifford) Roberts, many of the most important decisions, such as those governing the exact shapes and contours of the greens, couls not be made until pick and shovels were in hand. Roberts in contrast liked etails. "What I want you to do" he wrote (to MacKenzie) in December 1931 "is to give us something in the nature of your official map, everything to be drawn to an exact scale and all feature put down as accuratly as it is possible at this time." He told MacKenzie that he needed a good map to display prominantly, as an advertisement, during Augusta's winter resort season - perhaps in the lobby of the Bon Air (a local hotel)."

Owen's goes on to say that MacKenzie was "entirley capable" of making such a precise drawing of a golf course, referencing his survey of the Old Course at St Andrews, but does not state if such a map was finally produced. Though from reading the book, no one ever said no Roberts...

Also in the book is this extract from a water colour by MacKenzie

(First picture I've added so hope this works)

Hope that helps?

James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

BCrosby

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2008, 09:28:06 AM »
Edwin -

Tom Doak and others might know more than I, so subject to their corrections, here goes:

MacK prepared at least two routings for ANGC. The first in 1931. I say "at least" because I recall that there is a third (and final) routing which now hangs in the offices of an Atlanta law firm. They reflect some interesting changes in how he thought through different design problems. For example, I think some of the later holes on the current back nine were originally conceived with a different par.  

MacKenzie also did separate drawings for each green and its surrounds. The drawings are remarkable, giving exact details as to contour, bunkers, mounds, etc. out to about 25 or 50 yards from each green. A copy of this pamphlet recently came on the market. The USGA archives has its own copy. Per MacK's famous map of TOC, he could be very detail oriented when he wanted to be. If you want to know what Mack was up to at ANGC, these green sketches are eye-openers. I suspect these were prepared for construction purposes.

I won't go into the extensive photographic evidence about the early course, but something very close to MacK's routings and green construction drawings was built.

Finally, MacK wrote a great deal about specific features and specific holes at ANGC. For example, his commentary in the first Masters program went hole by hole and is great stuff.

Of course Ron Whitten says MacK didn't have much to to with the design of ANGC and that the Fazio changes are just awesome. And Forrest thinks he can improve any design. So let's not worry too much about what the greatest architect ever might have thought about at ANGC. There are lots of folks around today who think they know better.

Bob  

« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 10:02:18 AM by BCrosby »

Mike_Young

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2008, 09:39:04 AM »
So let's not worry too much about what the greatest architect ever might have thought about at ANGC.

Bob  



Sorry you don't want to hear my opinion ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2008, 09:55:39 AM »
Mike -

I mispoke. I DO want to hear what the greatest golf course architect ever has to say.  ;D

James -

Thanks for posting the '31 routing. Note the thinking on holes 16 and 17.

Bob 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 09:57:18 AM by BCrosby »

Mike_Young

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2008, 10:01:08 AM »
Mike -

I mispoke. I DO want to hear what the greatest golf course architect ever has to say.  ;D

James -

Thanks for posting the '31 routing. Note the thinking on holes 16 and 17.

Bob 
Of course...or should I say coarse....
" I bet he had none"
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2008, 10:13:01 AM »
Bob, you think 17 was long enough to be a par 5?

Is the pamphlet you refer to available for purchase anywhere?  I would love to see those green site sketches, not to mention read his hole by hole analysis.

Is the map hanging in an Atlanta law firm's office on the same scale as Dr MacK's map of The Old Course that's hanging in Peter Dawson's office in St Andrews?  That thing is HUGE!  I got a look at it last year thanks to the friendly porter.

Bill

Jim Nugent

Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2008, 10:18:22 AM »

Finally, MacK wrote a great deal about specific features and specific holes at ANGC. For example, his commentary in the first Masters program went hole by hole and is great stuff.


Bob, can you (or anyone else) reproduce that commentary for us -- or tell us what Mac says?  Sounds real interesting.

BCrosby

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2008, 10:25:18 AM »
Bob, you think 17 was long enough to be a par 5?

Is the pamphlet you refer to available for purchase anywhere? 

Is the map hanging in an Atlanta law firm's office on the same scale as Dr MacK's map of The Old Course that's hanging in Peter Dawson's office in St Andrews?  That thing is HUGE!  I got a look at it last year thanks to the friendly porter.

Bill

Bill - Very observant. Yes, I suspect that MacK toyed with the idea of the 17th as a par 5. Someone (I can't remember who) noted that the 17th green was built with that in mind. Which actually explains a lot about the current green.

The routing at the law firm is not on the scale of MacK's TOC routing. But it's pretty big. I would guess its 3' by 4'. This thread makes me want to go look at it again. I worked at that firm back in the day and spent many hours in meetings under its subtle glow. ;)

As far as I know MacK's construction drawings have not been published. All copies I know of are in private hands or at the USGA. If anyone has an extra copy taking up space, I'm in the market. ;D

Bob

BCrosby

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2008, 10:34:29 AM »
Jim -

MacK's commentary in the first program was reproduced in a book. I confess that I forget which one. It might be Charles Price's wonderful and under-appreciated book on the Masters.

I also have a copy of the original 1934 program at home. I'll post some of what MacK said.

Bob

 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2008, 11:11:39 AM »
Does 13 look like that to reach it in two you laid up and then kicked a field goal through a narrow gap of trees?  It shows as a par 4.

Why would anyone go right on the second shot at the proposed 17th?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2008, 11:30:10 AM »
Does 13 look like that to reach it in two you laid up and then kicked a field goal through a narrow gap of trees?  It shows as a par 4.

Why would anyone go right on the second shot at the proposed 17th?

Maybe the green contours or fronting bunkering?  The shot from right field might have been a whole lot easier, and maybe reaching in two wasn't an option in 1931.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 01:21:11 PM »
BCrosby,

Did Dr. MacKenzie's final routing have the nines as currently played or as they were when the course opened?

Where was the green on #10 relative to the bunker in the middle of the fairway?  Isn't there a fairly severe downslope past the bunker that would make the green blind if it had been placed there?

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2008, 01:27:24 PM »
Daniel Wexler's book has several of the sketches including one of the 15th green with the water hazard of the same path as the burn on 1 TOC.

Fascinating!

Also, Mac's hole by hole descriptions appeared in an Am Golfer 1934 piece available on the LA84 website.

Mark

BCrosby

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2008, 02:10:12 PM »
Lou -

The 1931 routing has the nines as they currently play. A later routing had them flipped. I recall seeing a later, third routing where they were flipped back. But I might be wrong about the third routing. I'll look at my stuff again.

Yes, the original 10th had the green tucked behind and below the big fw bunker there now. The green was partially blind. The hole would have been about 30 yards shorter, but it would have been fascinating. Instead of just busting a big rope hook off the tee into the valley, you would have needed to carefully place your drive on a skinny plateau on the right side of the fw. Or else you were left with an approach to a fall away green that was partially blind.

There is a postcard of the original fw and green that has appeared in a number of books.

Bob

Bill_McBride

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2008, 02:16:08 PM »
Daniel Wexler's book has several of the sketches including one of the 15th green with the water hazard of the same path as the burn on 1 TOC.

Fascinating!

Also, Mac's hole by hole descriptions appeared in an Am Golfer 1934 piece available on the LA84 website.

Mark

Mark, do you have a URL?  Thanks.

David Stamm

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2008, 02:26:52 PM »
BCrosby,

Did Dr. MacKenzie's final routing have the nines as currently played or as they were when the course opened?

Where was the green on #10 relative to the bunker in the middle of the fairway?  Isn't there a fairly severe downslope past the bunker that would make the green blind if it had been placed there?


Here is a photo, Lou...


"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Greg Holland

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2008, 02:34:32 PM »
Couldn't find the Mackenzie hole notes, but did find a 1935 article entitled Stroke Analysis of the Augusta National by Bobby Jones in the March American Golfer.

Very interesting -- the hardest two holes on the course were 12 (3.333 stroke avg) and 13 (4.875).  16 was the easiest, and 11 then 7 then 10 were the easiest of the par 4 holes.  Holes 14 and 5 were the hardest par 4s (and Jones noted that 14 had only one hazard that wasn't really in play (it now has none) and 5 had none (now has several) -- he also compared both holes to No. 18 on the Old Course). 

The course was 3750 yards out and in.

By the way, winner Horton Smith never made worse than a bogey, and won at -4, with scores of 70, 72, 70, 72 (his only eagle came on no. 8).

Jim Nugent

Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2008, 03:46:53 PM »
Couldn't find the Mackenzie hole notes, but did find a 1935 article entitled Stroke Analysis of the Augusta National by Bobby Jones in the March American Golfer.

Very interesting -- the hardest two holes on the course were 12 (3.333 stroke avg) and 13 (4.875).  16 was the easiest, and 11 then 7 then 10 were the easiest of the par 4 holes.  Holes 14 and 5 were the hardest par 4s (and Jones noted that 14 had only one hazard that wasn't really in play (it now has none) and 5 had none (now has several) -- he also compared both holes to No. 18 on the Old Course). 

The course was 3750 yards out and in.

By the way, winner Horton Smith never made worse than a bogey, and won at -4, with scores of 70, 72, 70, 72 (his only eagle came on no. 8).

Greg, some of the numbers you give seem off.  Do you mean each nine was 3750 yards?  That comes to 7500 all told.   I thought the course was more like 6500 yards back then.  3250 yards on each nine might work.   

Also, 13 was/is a par 5.  4.875 means they averaged under par.  That would make it one of the easiest holes, not one of the hardest. 

Greg Holland

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2008, 03:56:16 PM »
[
Greg, some of the numbers you give seem off.  Do you mean each nine was 3750 yards?  That comes to 7500 all told.   I thought the course was more like 6500 yards back then.  3250 yards on each nine might work.   

Also, 13 was/is a par 5.  4.875 means they averaged under par.  That would make it one of the easiest holes, not one of the hardest. 
My computer apparently went a little crazy (or I can't type):  yardage was 6700 (3350 both in and out) and I have no idea where the emoticon came from -- that was supposed to be hole 8.

13 had the highest stroke average (but yes, as a par 5, and it was the hardest of the four par 5s), and I guess my comment was based on what Jones said.  Jones said in the article that the "two holes on the course which might be said to be really severe show up in the tabulation.  The twelfth, one hundred and fifty yards, with its small green, guarded in front by a broad stream, required the highest stroke average of any of the short holes--there were so many fives there; and the thirteenth, four hundred and eighty yards, was the head man of the entire course.  This hole is entirely natural, but it has a way of tempting one to try for more than he can do with safety.  It is a dog-leg to the left upon which the only hazard is a stream which crosses one hundred and fifty yards in front of the tee, wanders along the left side of the fairway, and recrosses obliquely in front of the green.  The ambitious fellows, wanting to get home in two, had to cut the corner close to the stream with the tee-shot, and then smack a spoon or brassie onto the green.  It could be done reasonably with two fine shots, but many of us were caught--and then a seven was not unlikely."

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2008, 03:59:40 PM »
Bob,

The photo makes it look like the old 10th was right of the bunker, not behind it, which is how I remember others saying it was.  Reason for demolition was always drainage problems, and it does look like it sits in a  swale with not a lot holding the water back from way up the hill.  Might have had shade issues too.

I'm on the wrong thread, but that green is an example of a Mac Green that shouldn't ever be rebuilt - technical problems and the golfers thought the hole was too easy for a major tournament.  They were better off going up to the hill right above the bunker in that photo.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Justin_Zook

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2008, 04:10:19 PM »
David, great photo.

Who was the last Masters participant to hit his ball in that bunker during competition?  I don't know myself; I am curious.

If things continue progressing as they are, maybe it'll be in play for some of the guys in a few years.  ;)
We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2008, 04:22:59 PM »
Here is another thought on ANGC - looking at the bunker in the photo, did the bunker shaping there equal what was done at CPC, Royal Melbourne and other Mac Classics?

While the shapes are similar, my impression is that the three dimensional aspects of the Good Doctor bunkers are more impressive at the other courses mentioned.  And this is the last Augusta bunker we have to compare!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Nugent

Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2008, 04:24:55 PM »
When did Mac/Jones complete their final design for ANGC?  Did they make revisions during construction?  Also, when did they start/finish building the course?  

James Boon

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Re: Mackenzie's construction documents for Augusta?
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2008, 04:25:21 PM »
Wow, as a "Newbie" its fascinating to see how you guys can take something and run with it. I feel I should say sorry to Edwin for posting the picture of the 31 routing as it seems to have sent the discussion off about a whole bunch of different issues related to Augusta...

Anyone mentioned the 19th hole yet? Or that the 12th seems to go over trees , and the 18th as well, or where these existing trees to be removed, showing that MacKenzie obviously used artistic licence with his drawing. I'd love to read the text from MacKenzie's descriptions from the '34 Masters programme if someone can post it?

Greg, I always thought it was the 5th that was compared the the 17trh on the old Course at St Andrews?

Lastly, to get back to Edwin's starting point, anyone else got any construction drawings etc by MacKenzie?
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

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