[Jim_Coleman]

    I guess that's why Stonewall and Sand Hills failed too.  What, they didn't fail? 
    Another course that failed due to poor architecture  -  Tattersoll.

[Kyle Harris]

    I guess that's why Stonewall and Sand Hills failed too.  What, they didn't fail? 
    Another course that failed due to poor architecture  -  Tattersoll.

Jim,

With respect, Stonewall is less than 10 minutes from the PA Turnpike Morgantown Exit, which, in that region rarely is backed up. It's a much different hour drive than moving 15 miles in an hour along Route 1.

[Mike_Young]

Jim,
I don't know anything of Inniscrone but IMHO if it was architecture it could have been overcome.  As an architect I figure if you have 50% of the people liking what you do...then you are doing ok...BUT the thing I think is often confused with bad architecture is a bad owner.....architecture can look really bad when the greens poor, bunkers are not being cared for or fairways have different cuts than intended. 
I have an owner that today thinks he can be the supt, the golf pro and the marketing arm....so he just fired them all last week....he will doom his project which has been open about 8 months and watch how quickly the architecture will become BAD....

[D_Malley]

i think the main reason why inniscrone failed as a private club initially was because of the development plan associated with the property.  they built homes surroundeing the course that were selling in the low $200's, and the clients buying those homes did not have the disposable income for a private club membership.  had they built homes in the $350+ market they would of been in a much better situation to sell memberships.

[Mark_F]

Your question says "architecture" but implies that you want examples of courses where the design strategy is what was faulty. 

Moonah Links Open?

Or is that because it is too expensive for tightwad Australians to play? ($100) per round.

I'd suggest that if the design was more enjoyable, it wouldn't matter if it was $100.

[Mark_Fine]

Poor architecture doesn't help the cause, but I'd say poor fiscal responsibility is a much bigger culprit for course closings.  I've seen more courses get in trouble because they are poorly managed, overspent on their clubhouse, and so on.  Poor architecture can generally be corrected (at least mitigated) but once you get heavily in debt and start bleeding cash, it is a tough hole to climb out of. 
Mark

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mark,

See Dauphin Highlands thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34236.0.html

[Matthew Mollica]

Moonah Links Open?

Or is that because it is too expensive for tightwad Australians to play? ($100) per round.

I'd suggest that if the design was more enjoyable, it wouldn't matter if it was $100.

I agree completely Mark.

Good architecture can encourage a second owner to come in and re-establish/retain the course.  Hopefully (thinking of StAB).

Exactly what happened at The Grand on the Gold Coast...

MM

[Jim_Coleman]

   I find it amusing that so many here are hesitant to blame failure on bad architecture.  Professional courtesy, I suppose.  Certainly our friend Tom Doak isn't so hesitant - read his observations on courses ranked low on the Doak scale.
   I am convinced that a well designed golf course should not (and, in most cases, will not) fail.  If you build it, they will come.  There are bad designs that may succeed for other reasons - social cache, geographic need, good bargain, etc.  But good courses are recognized as such and are played. 
   So, all you defenders of Inniscrone, wake up and smell the coffee.  If it were a good golf course, the public would recognize it. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Lederach.

Much like Inniscrone, I'd imagine it would drive a low handicap golfer like yourself who seems to define "fairness" and "challenge" as constituting good architecture a bit nuts.

[Bruce Katona]

Even marginal courses can be successful if they owner/developer doesn't overspend on course construction,  clubhouse construction,  AND THE LAND.  Inniscrone and Tattersol were too expensive to construct and operate to be successful. 

Once the barrier to entry is low enough (maybe the 3rd or 4th owner), the course will be successful since the cost to operate; including servicing the bank debt; will be in line with revenue expectations.  That owner will be a genius for turning around a lagging property.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bruce,

Hasn't that really become the de facto model for virtually every type of course in recent years, irrespective of the type of golf course architecture?

It seems to me that the initial outlays of capital to build and finance the startup are only very rarely recoverable by the original owner and developer, or am I missing something?

[Jim_Coleman]

Mike:
   Haven't been there yet.  Looking forward to it.  I've heard good things.

[mike_malone]

 In a tough market for golf--Western Chester County-- architecture seems to be an important factor in survival. Haven't Wyncote  and Pilgrim's Oak (possibly in another county but off Route 1 as the others are ) hung in there better than both Inniscrone and Hartefeld ?

   Inniscrone seems to show that a few horrible holes can overwhelm the good ones. I don't hear many average golfers speaking well of it.

  Tattersall ( name changed to protect the innocent ) would seem to be ideally located, but it's architecture is miserable and it failed.

   I await Jim Coleman's views on Lederach. He should go on a Monday which is the only day he can't play at home.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tattersall failed in its original CCFAD model. Now that rates have been lowered, I understand it's doing much better. One of the great cart rides of all time there from 18 to the clubhouse.

[mike_malone]

 The ride from #9 to #10 is a close second.

[Rick_Noyes]

I don't think architecture in and of itself would be a cause for failure.  In a saturated market, The Grand Strand for example, "poorly" designed courses will fail based on market forces.  Of which there are "better" or "more fun" places to play for the price.  There is also at work in that market the value of the land verses slugging it out every year with the compettion.  But, for what could be deemed the "lower end" courses, they can continue to lower rates or keep them level.  There is still a market for $20 golf.

[Adrian_Stiff]

   I find it amusing that so many here are hesitant to blame failure on bad architecture.  Professional courtesy, I suppose.  Certainly our friend Tom Doak isn't so hesitant - read his observations on courses ranked low on the Doak scale.
   I am convinced that a well designed golf course should not (and, in most cases, will not) fail.  If you build it, they will come.  There are bad designs that may succeed for other reasons - social cache, geographic need, good bargain, etc.  But good courses are recognized as such and are played. 
   So, all you defenders of Inniscrone, wake up and smell the coffee.  If it were a good golf course, the public would recognize it. 

Jim- Its pretty much the other factors as mentioned by most posters that lead to failure, the actual design has to be pretty shocking to have such an appeal that failure is because of that, however nice golf courses that are well designed WILL still fail just because the $$$$$ v run costs dont stack up. Some courses are designed to be maintained by too many staff and as TD eluded too.... "is this bad architecture"... it is possibly bad architecture if the architect knows the in depth business plan. I know when I design courses that aspect is very important and its something to be clearly discussed with the client but I doubt if the 'names' (ex tour players) get involved in that aspect.

[Bruce Katona]

Mike:

It's true that in recent years, owner/developers/operators believed the assending market would hold and thus their grand business plans would be successful.  More so, many LLC's and LP's were formed by non golf or real estate professionals (doctors, accountants, businessmen) who wanted to play the game of golf course owner/real estate developer/owner of a sports venue.

After the bloom comes off the rose, you sign personnaly for debt and have to write checks every year to cover operating losses, the thrill of owning "your own golf course" fades.

Expectations of return on investment are rarely met...the promise on mid- teens IRR on equity are difficult to attain in golf course development.....there are many successful people in "the business" here on this site that run their facilities like a business, not a hobby, who aren't getting that type of return on their invested capital.

If you run the operation like a business, it's a great business to be in...most of us don't or won't ever get rich, but it's a fun way to make a living.

[Michael Whitaker]

A great example of bad architecture dooming a course is Millstone Village in upstate South Carolina.

Opened in 2001, Millstone was designed by local architect Tom Jackson who has numerous courses throughout the Carolinas that have been well received. This course was terribly ill-conceived and built on a piece of severely sloped property not suited for golf. But... construction techiniques being what they are these days... a course was forced onto the site and it opened for business in 2001. This course had the greatest collection of bizarre and unorthadox golf holes I have ever seen in one place. I can forgive an occasional bizarre hole on a course when it seems there might have been no other way to get from Point A to point B, but this place had more severely uphill, downhill, and sidehill holes than you could possibly imagine on one track. As a result, business suffered and they started lowering their rates in an attempt to "buy" business. The bad design of the course was a popular topic among local golfers and only those looking for very cheap golf visited there more than once or twice.

Millstone struggled by for a few years (mainly on its teaching facility which was nice) but finely succumbed to the inevitable. It was, by far, the worst course designed by an accomplished professional that I have ever seen.

Thankfully, it is now overgrown and nearly 100% returned to nature... never to be missed!

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