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Mark Bourgeois

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2008, 10:58:46 AM »
Jim

No that's not the comparison.  It's not supposed to be mini-tour player vs. Gary Player!  That's like saying the gap between the worst of the best today and the best of the best yesterday has increased.

No, what I am trying to get at is that the worst of the best today is better than the worst of the best yesterday, but that the agent of that change also makes the best of the best today (ex-Tiger) worse than the best of the best yesterday (ex-Jack).  The distribution on both ends of the high-end of golf has narrowed: the differences between the worst of the best and the best of the best, past vs. present.

Unnatural Selection -- hilarious for me to have called it a "theory" when it's really at this point a hypothesis, although possibly the most-brilliant hypothesis on this subject since, well, Darwin on Berwick golfers...but no I insist, please hold off the accolades for now! -- the idea of Unnatural Selection is that the change in how players learn the game and progress in their ability to play the game (it's more than checking off a list of "skills" to acquire!) has made the worst less worse and produced the unintended consequence of the potentially great becoming only good.

In the past, the worst of the best would have been selected out by competition.  This learning process -- think of it as in the real Natural Selection theory as there being wide variation in paths to greatness -- produced some relative stinkers (again, we're just talking about the high end) but was necessary somehow to producing a few diamonds: Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, Jack Nicklaus, etc.

Today, some who would have gotten selected out by competition are:
1) prevented from that fate before they get to it via the Conveyor Belt process of learning; and / or
2) allowed to "survive" due to the existence of many more professional tours, which enables them to stay on the Conveyor Belt longer (call this section the Pelz-Leadbetter Belt), making them even "more good" and ultimately strengthening the fields at a major.

The flip side of Unnatural Selection is it strips out the potential greatness by reducing learning to agreed-upon fundamentals plus by running increasing numbers of top-tier golfers through Conveyor Belts such as the US university golf system, national junior programs like those in Sweden and Australia, etc.

Jeff, your post reminds me of two anecdotes that may shed a little light:

A. Harvey Penick's advice to his players to beware the opponent with a bad grip and a bad swing.  These players will have grooved their action, and then he goes on to say such a player would not have made it to that level had he not succeeded.

B. Dave Pelz said his study of the short game (and perhaps here is a good place to add the Pelz Short-Game Conveyor Belt to the list above) began when he followed two Tour pros during a tournament, charting their every shot and result.  He paid particular attention to one who had a beautiful swing, great rhythm, etc. -- and was astonished to learn only after the round was completed that the player with a bad swing and unremarkable game had beat those fancy pants right off Pretty Boy.

It's just a hypothesis, but it's good to see Jeff didn't get completely sick when he ate it -- at least until you so helpfully pointed out what he had just eaten -- and now it's more than half-baked!

That said, Jim, I think you do hit on the soft underbelly of Unnatural Selection when you point to the size of the game as the reason.  The increase in money could provide an explanation distinct from Unnatural Selection for why we don't see as much in the tails of the distribution at the high end, as I mentioned in the earlier post.

A second point you seem to make I'm not sure I agree with: "Great players are born with the determination to refuse failure."

Let's accept the statement as true.  Given the majors as the standard, the conclusion is fewer great players exist today.  Then doesn't that mean today's lack of greatness is just a fluke of randomness, of birthrates 20-30 years ago?  If so, I don't buy that.  I think nurture explains it better than nature, and in this case "nurture" means Unnatural Selection -- aka the Bob Rotella Conveyor Belt!

Mark

PS I agree it's a horribly-flawed analysis to see who might have won without Jack / Tiger in the field -- except in 2000, when Els nearly won the Grand Slam in the "human being" division!

Paul Stephenson

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2008, 11:04:41 AM »
I also think it is disingenuous to think removing Tiger or Jack from a field would automatically give second place the victory. The dynamics of a golf tournament are very fluid.

Maybe naive, but certainly not disingenuous.  Like I said above I'm not sure what those numbers mean, other than Bruce Crampton doesn't seem to get enough credit.  There is no attempt at insincerity or not being straight forward.

If I'm unaware, I'm certainly not pretending  ;D

JESII

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2008, 11:10:48 AM »
Paul,

I have so few words to choose from it seems odd I would choose the wrong one so often, but I do, and you are correct. My apologies.


Mark,

Remember the Lee Trevino quote "as soon as I find a teacher that can beat me I'll take a lesson from him..." or some such thing.

Certainly provides support to your side of Unnatural Selection and its negative effect on the best of the best...see, I'm not such a bad guy. I don't mind providing assistance to an argument I disagree with.

The Leadbetter/Pelz Belt has, to me, always seemed counter-intuitive as a way to "improve" the games of the best players. But, when properly done, a second set of eyes can be invaluable when you're in a bad patch.

Paul Stephenson

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2008, 11:19:06 AM »
JES,

No problem.  In all honesty it was a little nit-picky on my part as well.

Mark,

Interesting hypothesis.  Do you think un-natural selection has effected Tiger?  He's let it be known that he wants to own his swing like Hogan and Moe Norman owned theirs.  Is he a throw-back?

Matt_Ward

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2008, 11:22:03 AM »
Gents:

The "what if" Tiger were not in the field of majors is wonderful speculation because as in all things in which the word "if" is used -- the people making such an assumption always hold constant one variable (Tiger not being the field) and then again assume the person who finished second would have automatically won the event.

That's not only wishful thinking -- but it's highly unlikely such things would happen in such a way 100% of the time. Once you change one variable it's likely any number of other variables will change.

What so many people fail to appreciate is how equipment has been a major element in ADVANCING the skill level of so many people today. That same equipment was not present with the core of the competition that Jack played against in his prime.

I find it rather amusing that people truly believe that the foursome I provided previously ...

Palmer
Player
Watson
Trevino

is somehow behind any other four people of today's Tiger time frame.

Tiger deserves all the credit for any number of his wins but there have been time when the field has been bunched with any array of challengers perched on the edge of success and guess what -- they have all crashed and burned because they simply cannot RAISE their games when the situation required them to do so. Tiger's mental toughness is not to be disputed -- but Jack is no slouch in that department either. In Jack's case he did have people who could raise their game and beat the Bear on certain occasions. I'm still waiting for the occasion when someone can look Tiger in the eye and actually do it.

Jack is spot on in my book. The average Tour player is better than his counterpart from years back. The elite player -- the one capable in winning multiple majors is an entirely different matter. Those who believe Tiger is that far ahead will use that excuse until the cows come home. I see it as a lack of their real inside firepower of his main competitors when taking on The Man.

One final comment -- the gents I mentioned during Jack's era could finish off a major when opportunity presented itself. I can recall how Watson looked Nicklaus in the eye in different majors and did not blink. Can anyone of Tiger's era even remotely say such a thing?

Tim Pitner

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #80 on: April 09, 2008, 11:45:59 AM »
Matt W,

Ordinarily, I would stay away from such a subjective and OT topic, but I'm spurred on by your insistence on presenting what is unknowable as fact. 

You assume that because Watson, for example, "stared down" Nicklaus that Watson must be better than Els or Mickelson because they haven't stared down Woods in a major.  That analysis is fundamentally flawed.  If Woods is superior to Nicklaus (and it's undeniable that Woods is more fit and has a better short game than Nicklaus), then we don't know how Palmer, Player, Watson, etc. would have fared against Woods. 

It's been pointed out that you've selected rivals of Nicklaus that excelled at different time periods--that weakens your argument.  What is completely unknowable, though, is how the likes of Palmer or Player would have fared in the modern game and, conversely, how an Els or Singh would have fared in the older version of the game. 

Do you suppose that the likes of Els, Mickelson, Singh and Goosen wouldn't be good ball strikers without modern equipment?  I think those players would have been just fine.  I do wonder whether Palmer, Player and Trevino, at their size, could have challenged Tiger.  The best players of today are all 6'0" and over and strong.  If you gave Palmer in his prime modern clubs and put him on a weight-training regimen, could he have de-throned Tiger?  We'll never know and it's preposterous for you to claim that you do know based on Palmer's performance in another era. 

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #81 on: April 09, 2008, 11:49:16 AM »
Jack doesn't knock Tiger down! He knocks down Tiger's competition!

And by doing so he knocks down Tiger, without looking like he is.

Haven't had a chance to peruse the report yet - thanks for the link - but how do you think Jack's competition would've faired against Tiger?

Miller would've folded even sooner, Tom wouldn't have as many Opens, Lee would've won a mere fraction of what he won.... You get the picture. :)

The woman from the report can analyze the stats all she wants on the current guys versus Tiger and the other guys versus Jack, but there is no way she can predict how they would've played against Tiger.

Jack has said many times how he would just hang around for 3 days and go for the win on Sunday. No one can do that anymore.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2008, 11:56:16 AM »
I find it rather amusing that people truly believe that the foursome I provided previously ...

Palmer
Player
Watson
Trevino

is somehow behind any other four people of today's Tiger time frame.

Well, get ready to laugh your ass off. :)

Behind, maybe not behind, but I don't think that foursome is much, if any, better than Els, Mickelson, Singh and just about any other guy you could throw in as #4. It was a gigantically different world and game then. If those guys had grown up now, they'd likely just be sliding in to various spots in the top 10 with the three I mentioned and guys like Furyk and Harrington.

Mark B -

Unnatural selection is a fascinating hypothesis to me, but I'm going to have to do a lot more thinking on it before I can debate with you.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #83 on: April 09, 2008, 11:58:53 AM »
George

Then that makes two of us.

Matt

How about going a little deeper?  You're saying as a group today's pros don't have the mental firepower.  One or two, here or there, that's to be expected.  But "group" implies a common denominator -- what is it?

Mark

PS Nicklaus on Watson after the 1981 Masters: "The best part of Tom Watson's game is his mental toughness.  Above all, he doesn't like to lose.  And the place that that's reflected is in putts between four and twelve feet.  He makes putts when he has to make them, and that's the mark of a competitor.  Today Tom was there when he had to be there."

And here's Watson on the same day: "I'd be lying if I didn't admit that it was special to beat Jack today.  It means more to go head-to-head with him and win."  Watson then was asked whether it was possible "that the real Watson was not a stylist intent on 'swing arc' and 'late release' and similar quasi-scientific foolishness, but a raw battler who loved nothing more than to attack a Bear and chew its leg off....'Well,' he said, 'I might chew off a toe or two.' " (From Tom Boswell)

Sean_A

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #84 on: April 09, 2008, 12:11:37 PM »
I find it rather amusing that people truly believe that the foursome I provided previously ...

Palmer
Player
Watson
Trevino

is somehow behind any other four people of today's Tiger time frame.

Well, get ready to laugh your ass off. :)

Behind, maybe not behind, but I don't think that foursome is much, if any, better than Els, Mickelson, Singh and just about any other guy you could throw in as #4. It was a gigantically different world and game then. If those guys had grown up now, they'd likely just be sliding in to various spots in the top 10 with the three I mentioned and guys like Furyk and Harrington.

Mark B -

Unnatural selection is a fascinating hypothesis to me, but I'm going to have to do a lot more thinking on it before I can debate with you.

George

Incredible comment.  You put a lot of stock into something that I don't see.  Do you honestly believe that Tiger's sidekicks and Joe Bloggs are a match (day in and day out) for Palmer, Player, Watson & Trevino?  If so, why?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #85 on: April 09, 2008, 12:19:06 PM »
For those siding with modern players, there's a potential variation-compression explanation there, too: it's Stephen Jay Gould's explanation of why the .400 hitter is extinct: overall improvement in the field compressing the ability-gap between the best and the worst.  Separation is more difficult.

Two issues with trying to make the analogy for golf:
1. Tiger has separated himself.  He's like a .500 hitter.  So somehow you either have to explain Tiger or exclude Tiger.  Probably the latter is your best bet.  Then you have to show that Tiger wins less often against the field than did Jack.  Not sure that's true...
2. In stroke play the golfers don't compete directly.  But there's probably a way around that.

Mark

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2008, 12:41:03 PM »
George

Incredible comment.  You put a lot of stock into something that I don't see.  Do you honestly believe that Tiger's sidekicks and Joe Bloggs are a match (day in and day out) for Palmer, Player, Watson & Trevino?  If so, why?

Ciao

It's rather simple, actually - I don't think people change that much.

The best 5 golfers of today would compare favorably with the best 5 over any period anyone chooses. There would be individual differences, but on the whole, adjusting for evolution and technological changes, things would be relatively comparable.

The same holds true for baseball, football, tennis, whatever. If Jesse Owens were born 70 years later, he'd be among the 2 or 3 guys who will end up on the Olympic squad in Beijing.

Styles and techniques may change, but the inner composition of athletes/people does not.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Doug Ralston

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2008, 01:09:42 PM »
The whole comparison is faulty. In the 50's and 60's, there were NOT EVEN CLOSE to as many players capable of winning a PGA event on a given week. Tiger cannot be compared to 4 or 5, like Nicklaus might, because while those few guys won most all the tournaments then, and there were maybe 20 who might do it occasionally, today there are 140 players who can, and sometimes do. Sheer odds of SOMEONE playing their best any given week, and winning against the greats, has risen dramatically.

Do not look at who is near Tiger, look at who finishes in top 10's now, compared to who did then. Now is going to vary far greater. That Tiger, or anyone, can dominate with this many chances of a super performance should be cause for amazement.

OT: If you want more amazement, try looking at Pat Head Summit. 983 wins, she will pass 1000 next year, at age 56. Out of 27 NCAA's ever played in Women's basketball, she has gotten UT at least to the 'Sweet 16' how many times? Yes, 27(!). Now, macho as you may feel, you have gotta appreciate that. Someone who simply knows her profession better than anyone else. Just so you know.

Doug

PS: Wha bout dem Lady Vols!

archie_struthers

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2008, 02:46:19 PM »
 ;D :D 8) ???

we've been down this road before...and JES might have started it LOL!

I've watched both Trevino and Watson play in their prime...not old enough for Arnie post 1975 

both were absolutely fearless and fabulous players....for my money I don't think any of the yourg guns could play them head to head under the gun!

did we forget  forget Irwin....Norman....pretty good players  Casper was mentioned


Lots of the old touring pro's do feel that the all exempt tour has diluted the talent at the top...if they just made the cut they could  barely pay the bills..a couple of years of top fifty finishes sent you back to Texas...or Chicago or Tijuana.....not to your accountant to invest your millions

 
one thing that definitely favors Tiger as the best ever is that in an era when
equipment has greatly narrowed the need for skill ...Tiger is absolutely dominant

JESII

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2008, 02:55:39 PM »
;D :D 8) ???

we've been down this road before...and JES might have started it LOL!



I probably deserved that for calling you a broken down old caddy on the Hidden Creek discussion, huh?

Anyway, the one position I will stand firmly behind is that there is no way to accurately quantify it...

archie_struthers

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #90 on: April 09, 2008, 03:02:58 PM »
 ;D :D :)


I'm with you James.....I did take umbrage....Old...arguably  but broken down ...NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #91 on: April 09, 2008, 03:25:42 PM »
Good for you...I've never felt so broken down as I do these days...

Kalen Braley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #92 on: April 09, 2008, 04:23:18 PM »
I used to take the Tiger point of view for pretty much forever...but this thread has really got me thinking otherwise.  I don't think any of todays crop, with the exception of Tiger could go toe to toe with Nicklaus, Player, Watson, Trevino, or Player.

I mean seriously, look at how many times these guys went toe to toe with Nicklaus and came out victorious?  On the opposite end other than Bob May and Chris DiMarco, I can't even think of one single time when Vijay, Phil, Goosen, Toms, Padraig, etc has stood toe to toe and lost in a 66-67 type of shootout.  They all fold like a cheap shoot, and the 2003 Masters is the best example of this.

So in this context, I think Jack was spot on with his assessment.  More better players now, but more great players back in his day.

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #93 on: April 09, 2008, 04:32:56 PM »
Kalen, the biggest clue to your flawed thinking is that you are actually agreeing with Matt Ward.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #94 on: April 09, 2008, 04:34:41 PM »
Tim P:

Allow me to answer each of your points.

Try to point out for me one instance where any of Tiger's main rivals have EVER demonstrated a capcity to beat him when he's playing his best golf? In straight terms, most of the so-called "elite" players Tiger routinely beats likely shrinks when called upon to play their best.

My point is that Watson was able to RAISE his game against the Bear and their epic Turnberry match for so many people who really follow the game was the point in which Watson emerged as world class player. Watson played with The Man of his time frame for the final 36 holes and simply outplayed the Bear.

When does Lefty EVER do that? How bout Ernie "I will throw up over myself" Els EVER do that. I give Vijay extra credit for the wins he's had in his 40's but he's not going to ever be mentioned with the likes of Lee Trevino.

Tim, you erroneously conclude Tiger is better than Nicklaus. Help me with something -- he's still five (5) majors short thus far. One other thing Jack is the greatest driver of the ball -- both length and accuracy combined. Because of club technology you get guys today who can routinely bomb and gouge the ball with little attention to mishits. Sometimes one should send Tiger mapquest to find where his tee ball finishes.

I'll concede Tiger has the better short game but Jack's tee-to-green game is second to none. On the putting front I'll call it a draw.

You're right -- I can't prove conclusively that the name of the other top players I mentioned would fare against Tiger but I can say this -- each of those players I mentioned did STAND up to the Bear unlike the fold like a cheap suit types you see today.

My argument is not weakened one iota. Jack stood up far longer than any champion in golf -- 24 years from the time of the '62 win at Oakmont until the '86 Masters. He demonstrated a consistent capacity to be a relevant factor in major championship play for nearly a quarter of a century.

If you think the equipment argument I made is bogus then let's be a bit more forthright shall we. Going from the clubs of yesteryear to the ones being used today is much simpler than having to deal with the thin blades and persimmon woods the gents I mentioned had to handle. If you see it otherwise then you and I are worlds apart on that one.

When you talk about the lack of size -- try checking out the tape of burly Jack when he played Oakmont in '62 hitting 300+ yards with the old MacGregor drivers and that dud of a ball called Tourney. Player is to be commended for not backing down to the challenge despite his shorter size. Trevino is to be saluted because being the ultimate hustler that he was he knew how to play against such giants -- realizing he would not win much of the time against Jack but also knowing that if he played his A+ prime game he would compete effectively.

Tim, you missed my main point by a country mile -- the men I mentioned had the mental acumen to not think of themselves as being DEFEATED from the outset. I don't see it with any challenger when they stand against Tiger. I never knocked Tiger for his success but deep down he knows he's buffaloed these guys before they plant the tee peg in the ground.



jeffwarne

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #95 on: April 09, 2008, 05:04:53 PM »
This is a rediculous arguement because players are being called "great" based on whether they won majors in Jack's or Tiger's era.

If Tiger (or Jack) won EVERY major would they say he wasn't great because he wasn't playing against any major winners?

Tiger has won a higher percentage of majors than Nicklaus, so there are less available for others of his era to win. Ergo, less "great players".

How many guys had enough game to win a major in 1965-50?

How many guys have the game now-150-200,300?

And to use Arnie in any Jack comparison is silly-he won one major after Jack's entry.

Jack finished second 19 times in majors-that tells me he should've spent more time on his short game.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #96 on: April 09, 2008, 05:13:24 PM »
If Tiger (or Jack) won EVERY major would they say he wasn't great because he wasn't playing against any major winners?

Wonderfully concise brilliance.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Pitner

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #97 on: April 09, 2008, 05:20:22 PM »
Matt,

My point about equipment was that I don't think equipment is a determining factor in who the top players are today.  Woods, Els, Mickelson, Singh, Goosen, etc. would still be the top players, IMO, if they were playing with persimmon drivers, blades and balata balls. 

With regard to the strength of Nicklaus' rivals, we're looking at the same data and drawing different conclusions.  You conclude that because Watson beat Nicklaus in a major when Nicklaus was playing well that Watson must be head and shoulders above Tiger's competitors today.  (BTW, I'm not doubting that Watson was a great player). 

I would submit that the margin between Woods and his rivals when each player is playing his best is greater than the margin between Nicklaus and his rivals and the reason is that Tiger is just that good.  Do you really have any doubt that Tiger (barring injury) will blow by Jack's 18 major wins?  I don't and neither does Jack.  Tiger's competitors know that if he plays his best, they can't win.  I don't think that was the case with Nicklaus and Watson. 

That must really wear on the likes of Els and Mickelson who must have thought at some time that they were the best players on the planet and now are, at best, a distant second.  So, yes, Woods has gotten into the heads of his competition but it's not because they're mental midgets--it's because they realize how good and how tough to beat Woods is. 

Kalen Braley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2008, 06:01:24 PM »
Kalen, the biggest clue to your flawed thinking is that you are actually agreeing with Matt Ward.

George, I'm sure your a swell guy...but you know number 32 will never fly in here.  http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

Well at least not on my watch!!   ;)  ;D

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2008, 06:05:19 PM »
Matt knows I think he's crazy, just as he thinks I'm crazy.

I do respect Matt's passion for the game and talking golf.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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