[wsmorrison]

I know a lot of people talk about prevailing winds and how triangulation helps expand the variety of effects.  I've witnessed prevailing winds along various coasts but not so much on inland courses, particularly around Philadelphia and especially at Merion East.  The winds seem to shift throughout the round.  You can be playing into the wind on 15 and into the wind on 16 in the opposite direction.  I don't sense that things are all that predictable during certain seasons of the year either.  Tom Murphy, an excellent caddy and a guy that seems to know a lot about a lot of things talks about their being a prevailing wind but downdrafts and micro-whatevers which induce alternate patterns.  I don't know how true all this is, but I do know the winds are very tricky.  Given the narrow property and lack of triangulation, it works out very well. 

What can architects, superintendents or anyone else on this site tell us about prevailing wind patterns and their reliability?  If they are reliable, it is easy to consider designs that took the prevailing patterns into account (or not).  If not, are we reading more into some of the designs than were intended?

[Sean_A]

Wayne

I often get confused over wind as well.  Not withstanding hills and elevation, unless I know a course wind seems to shift about unpredictably.  Even if I know a course wind can change dramatically out of nowhere.  Yesterday we were playing and the wind was reversed from normal.  In this pic, the "normal" wind is against, quartering from the right.  When we made the turn, the wind was behind quartering from the right.  The wind slowly shifted over the course of a few holes and by the time we got to the 15th the wind was now coming hard off the left (as you can see) for this storm.  When it passed, the wind went back to behind quartering from the right.  It was bizarre. 



Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

As a general rule, warm breezes and hot air originate from the direction of the golf course architect.

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:

One of the main things I learned from my year abroad is that you always have to allow for the wind.  No matter what anyone tells you about how predictable the prevailing wind may be, there are plenty of times it will blow in a different direction, too much to ignore.

If we are working in a place that's not particularly windy, then it doesn't matter too much; but if you're working on the Oregon coast, or in west Texas, or Tasmania, then you are crazy not to allow for the possibility of heavy winds from any and all directions.

What most people don't get is that the toughest wind to allow for is the wind at your back, when it's impossible to get the ball to stop quickly on a firm surface.  Every one of the courses I've built in such windy spots is accused of being "too easy" in calm conditions, because we've built the hazards around the greens with the wind in mind.  I always just shake my head when I hear this criticism because I think it's stupid.  In a place where the wind blows 3/4 of the time, you can't err on the side of being wrong 3/4 of the time.

[Tom Birkert]

From a purely playing perspective I think wind is vital in as much as it helps create indecision in the mind of the player. I always look to the movement of the clouds for overall wind direction, but trees especially seem to play havoc with wind direction and it becomes very much a matter of experience and gauging the conditions. In that sense I think wind becomes harder to allow for when playing inland as opposed to on links land.

Like an extension of local knowledge (where not to miss, which shots play shorter / further than they appear), the prevailing wind and the impact of it is something that one factors into most rounds at one’s home course.

[Steve Lang]

  
One can model wind on a meso-scale (cross country) or micro-scale with the right tools.. and meteorological and terrain data set(s). 

Analyzing golf course micro-domain windfields is only as good as your data sets for terrain, and met data, but certainly can be done..  Calmet has been used for Americas Cup racing!  How's your down valley wind flow this morning?



Met data sets may be produced using the Penn State University / NCAR Mesoscale Model (MM) Version 4 or Version 5.  Version 5 is the more recent iteration of the models which are termed prognostic type meteorological models.  On smaller scales as we're talking... the subject regional or course modelling domains could use the Calmet program to improve the hour-to-hour progression of the generated wind field compared to the default use of Calmet with raw hourly observations in a diagnostic mode. 

Neat stuff if you're into it..

It'd be nice to download local weather station doppler radar data to input to a windfield model.. producing near-time data analysis for that next shot.. ?

oh well, back to work..  some day..

[Sean_A]

Wayne:

One of the main things I learned from my year abroad is that you always have to allow for the wind.  No matter what anyone tells you about how predictable the prevailing wind may be, there are plenty of times it will blow in a different direction, too much to ignore.

If we are working in a place that's not particularly windy, then it doesn't matter too much; but if you're working on the Oregon coast, or in west Texas, or Tasmania, then you are crazy not to allow for the possibility of heavy winds from any and all directions.

What most people don't get is that the toughest wind to allow for is the wind at your back, when it's impossible to get the ball to stop quickly on a firm surface.  Every one of the courses I've built in such windy spots is accused of being "too easy" in calm conditions, because we've built the hazards around the greens with the wind in mind.  I always just shake my head when I hear this criticism because I think it's stupid.  In a place where the wind blows 3/4 of the time, you can't err on the side of being wrong 3/4 of the time.

Tom

Do you think you are a bit unusual in this regard?  I having been getting to know Burnham very well these past months and the members without fail criticise the greens of 6 & 14 as being too severe with wind about.  As it happens, these are two of the modern greens.  I can certainly agree with #14 - a table top green with no run up possibility and a very slim one of bouncing off the right side dune to kill the ball and kick it onto the green.  6 is severe too, but there is room to make a tricky up and down so I give it the thumbs up.  But I can also point to many older greens which are severe with wind in play.  I spose its difficult to draw line of what is acceptable/playable for all conditions without compromising exciting design.

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Prevailing wind direction and strength aren't constant. I trust them as much as riverboat gamblers.

But I do design for the typical winds during the course's main golf season. The laws of physics affect ball flight and roll, so allowing for these in design makes sense.  Otherwise, shots may be unplayable.

Most good players prefer the comfort of all "road signs," aligning, like the lie, wind and target all pointing one way to promote a certain favored shot. Imagine how tentative you would feel seeing consecutive road signs reading: "Chicago, next left" and "Chicago, this right"?

But, since there is no guaranteed wind, I never set up more than about 2/3 of the holes where targets all aligned with the normal prevailing wind, since off wind days would be too tough.  Also, both "riding" and "canceling" wind are appropriate challenges. And, its usually topographically impossible, but I try more when typical winds are higher velocity.

Accounting for wind also generally means enlarging targets on windier sites, as Tom D notes.  The Scots did, and their courses are fairly easy on the rare calm day.  However, desiging a course for the hardest wind in a more moderate situation may very well lead to a course that is generally too easy and not as much fun.

Where we think wind is more predictable, it also means specific types of target enlargements.  I allow more depth on downwind shots that spin less, curve less and roll further.  Headwind shots spin more, so the shot pattern accentuates playing into the wind – i.e. more curve and stop, meaning no more depth but a little more width. I rarely move bunkers further from the green on all sides to enlarge the target zone, but I may provide bigger bail out areas on one side.

BTW, it is not your imagination that wind hurts your distance more than it helps you. Studies show that a tailwind may add a few yards to a shot, but headwinds are likely to take away almost 20 yards!  Lastly, tree cover - like the big pines at Augusta - does cause wind to swirl and eddy making it hard for golfers to figure.  I doubt there is much planning in the gca head about that, as its all in the golfers head.

[Dan Herrmann]

What about the seasonal nature of winds in the mid-latitudes?  We obviously see this at places like Bandon, but also up here in the NE USA.

[Terry Thornton]

  Every one of the courses I've built in such windy spots is accused of being "too easy" in calm conditions, because we've built the hazards around the greens with the wind in mind.  I always just shake my head when I hear this criticism because I think it's stupid.  In a place where the wind blows 3/4 of the time, you can't err on the side of being wrong 3/4 of the time.

Tom,
I find Barnbougle "too difficult" when the prevailing N/Westerly is not blowing, except holes 7, 17 & 18. This more because of hole length than hazard placement. I've since learnt to just play from different tees for specific holes on those occasions. I suppose your accusers consider they have more ground for complaint where is an absence of 'crosswind' holes such as at Barnbougle Dunes.

[Adam Clayman]

Certainly the nature of Merion, surrounded by houses and or trees makes one think the wind might have changed direction. But, it's also the concave nature of the site which would fool even the most avid of members with regards to the winds affect.

[JESII]

Wayne,

If you've got a guy clubbing you for "downdrafts" give him my number...we need a new salesman...

[Jeff_Brauer]

What about the seasonal nature of winds in the mid-latitudes?  We obviously see this at places like Bandon, but also up here in the NE USA.

Dan,

It varies. In Chicago, you get SW in summer, and NW in spring and fall, except for a few days a year when it comes off the lake.  So, any N-S hole can be generally designed for some kind of west wind, although the cousres there play tougher in that lake breeze.

In Texas, the summer and winter prevailing winds switch 180 degrees and we can play in the winter.  So a shallow green on a hole playing south on the theory that wind will help stop a shot won't work in winter months.  So, greens get bigger all the way around, or in theory, frontal hazards are reduced for play in all wind.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I want to share a story that concurs Tom's comment.
Playing the Old course in a brisk wind - I thought going out (into the wind) was going to be hard - but I wound up near par - the ball was sticking near the hole.
Coming back was another story.
I crushed a low one with my persimmon on the 13th that ran way over the fairway ridge - 70 yards short of the green.  I then played a safe pitch short of the green hoping to run up... I think I hit a down slope and wound up further away than when I started  - with an 80 yard putt from past the hole.

The Gulf Coast of TX is very open and windy - the intent was to play in all different directions and make the fairways and green complexes huge - so there is always room somehow.
I would not enjoy a parallel (to the wind) hole course any where near as much.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Its funny, but my Lake Jackson course is not particularly windy, with its tree cover and being off the coast a few miles.  Layout there was mostly to avoid wetlands, and it does get somewhat parallel in spots.


I agree that a triangulated course plays best, but have been asked by a few clients to align as many holes as possible with the wind to make it an easier public course.  Only problem with that was it was a site where the topo really went 90 degrees to the wind, so it came out as one of my funnier routings, at least IMHO.

[Dan Herrmann]

What really hurts me on my home course is a strong cool/cold easterly wind we get somewhat frequently at this time of year.  Even worse, it's off the Atlantic (90 miles away), and is packed with humidity.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

Most golfers don't realize how much humidity and temp reduce distance.  For temp its like a half yard per degree below 70. Not sure about humidity, but I know heavy air reduces lift.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Are you intimating that predicting when a downwind shot will get knocked down can't be done?

[Lou_Duran]

With all due respect to the many fine superintendent out there, but it seems that at most places I played, expected wind and weather conditions are not significant considerations in setting up a course for the day's play.  In parts of the country such as Texas, it is possible to predict daytime weather with some accuracy (as the saying goes, the only obstacle to an incoming front is a barb wire fence).  If a day is going to be calm in Lubbock, it would seem that the tees could be moved back and the holes cut in more difficult positions, and vice-versa when the wind howls.

Jeff Brauer,

Our gca hero, Ralph Plummer, advocated routing the holes when possible to take advantage of the cross winds.  I think he said that this would enable the player to better control the spin on the ball (presumably holding up the shot with hook spin when the wind is coming from the left, cut spin when the wind is coming from the right).  One of the toughtest holes for me was the par-3 17th hole (original routing) at Riverside, with the creek left, bunkers right, and the wind generally coming over mostly from the right.  I probably didn't hit that long, skinny green more than 5% of the time.  I guess Mr. Plummer was not thinking of pull-hooking golfers like me when he reached his conclusion.

#3 at Great Southwest is a hole that illustrates how you designed a green to accept a shot in typically windy conditions.  The original Plummer green had considerably less back (high) to front tilt, and during parts of the year it was nearly impossible to hold from the back tees.  Typically a long iron to faiway metal from the back tees for most members, at least you can now fly the fronting lake and still hold the green.  I think you know how I feel about the spine splitting the left and right sides of the green, as well as the collection area to the left.            

[Kalen Braley]

Dan,

Most golfers don't realize how much humidity and temp reduce distance.  For temp its like a half yard per degree below 70. Not sure about humidity, but I know heavy air reduces lift.

Jeff,

I play a fair amount of winter golf here in Utah, mostly in the low 30s.  Is that half yard per degree figure based on hitting any club?  Because I sure don't see 15-20 yard differentials when I'm playing my mid to short irons.  Can't really tell with my driver or long irons because I'm too inconsitent in how I hit them.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,

Yeah Plummer was a happenin dude when it came to wind, mostly in routing, but he also tilted his greens with the prevailing wind.  That suggests to me that he figured most golfers of his day would ride the wind - inadvertantly or not and the green would be most receptive if it tilted left in a left wind, no matter how the shot was attempted.

Kalen,

It might be a foot per degree, or 3 yards per 10 degrees under 70F.  In 30 degree weather, you would figure 12 yard loss, at least according to averages.  As I originally posted it, I gather that would be 15 yards.  Whether the distance loss translates equally among clubs, I guess I can't say.  Its just that the temp has that effect in elasticity of the ball resulting in less distance.

I think if you figure any distance loss you are ahead of many golfers, who spend the day saying "just didn't catch it" when in fact they had no chance with the normal club.

[JESII]

Sully, Are you intimating that predicting when a downwind shot will get knocked down can't be done?

Yes!

[Steve Lang]

 

More moisture in the air at a given temperature makes it lighter, less dense.. usually by up to a couple of percent..  because H2O has a molecular weight of 18 verus dry air's at 28.98 and the amounts present in a parcel of air at different relative humidities

humid air is not "heavy air"..  the lower density the air, the lower the lift..  oh never mind.. but you can wind a bet on this.. or get clubbed..

[Lou_Duran]

Steve,

Plain English, please!  Is it true or not, does a ball hit in moist, colder air, holding everything else equal, tend to travel less far than a ball in dry, warmer air?   

If not, I must be getting really old, because I was definitely hitting the ball much shorter in coastal SoCal than NorthTX.

[Dan Herrmann]

Lou - ask any airplane pilot.  I'm pretty sure hot and dry produces the least lift on takeoff.  Even worse is a takeoff at altitude.  Keep in mind that I only have 10 hourse as a pilot, so I could EASILY be wrong.

And, Lou - on another point.  Our head greenkeeper will move up the tee on our 9th hole when a strong north wind blows.  It's about a 180 yard carry from the back of the member's tees - aout 160 from the front.   Forget the championship tees in those conditions!  Days like that are why we have a composite course rating.

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