[John Burzynski]

In another topic on this board, the discussion of a specific hole came up, the 11th hole at the Warren Course at Notre Dame.  The hole was listed by one poster as "memorable for the towering and looming power line structures right of the green.  Electricity, good for modern living, not so good for golf course aesthetics."    Can't argue there, nobody wants to see power lines when golfing.

The power line structures in question on this hole are the high voltage large steel-girdered power line structrures often seen in rural areas, and actually were in existence long before C&C designed and developed this course; I live in S. Bend and lived next to these same power lines about a mile east of campus, they have been there a while.   Since the course is Notre Dame's, they obviously wished to locate the course on or very near the campus, and this seemed to be one of the few acceptable plots of land available, without tearing down houses, etc., and the power structure is only visible from one or two holes.

Should an architect just scrap plans altogether if an asthetic man-made blot on the landscape or actual obstruction like this exists?  You simply can't plant enough trees or have tall enough trees to block the view of this power structure entirely.   I play a local private course that has a preexisting electrical pole and lines crossing the 3rd hole; there is a local rule that is in effect if your drive hits the power line, but otherwise the course is acceptable.

[BCrosby]

I've always thought man made objects are too quickly rejected by architects. Particularly on city courses. Think of the barns, walls, rail tracks, roads, hotels, and pedestrian pathways on TOC. I love the gritty urban feel of Prestwick. In those contexts, that suff is "natural," no?

The goal of perfect bucolic isolation is unnecessary and, ironically, sometimes makes for a more unnatural look than would otherwise be the case.

Bob



 

[Pete_Pittock]

You just design around them. Just don't expect to make any top 100 list.
The most disconcerting power line/tower I encountered was between 1 and 2 at TPC Snoqualmie Ridge. Fox Mulder would have been impressed and I wished the cart didn't have a speed limiter.

[Dan Herrmann]

I think Tom Doak did a wonderful job at Stonewall North (the new course) in the way the stone walls were integrated into the course.

And I also think Gil did a wonderful job with a stone wall at our (French Creek) #11, which fronts the green and completely changes the strategy of the hole.

A throwback to steeplechase golf? (yes, Wayne, I've been reading your posts!)

[Lloyd_Cole]

You just design around them. Just don't expect to make any top 100 list.
The most disconcerting power line/tower I encountered was between 1 and 2 at TPC Snoqualmie Ridge. Fox Mulder would have been impressed and I wished the cart didn't have a speed limiter.

Pete
You're riding around a golf course on a cart and you're complaining about a man made eyesore?

[Pete_Pittock]

Lloyd,
  I walked the course but accepted a cart ride there because the atonal humming was obnoxious, and eerie. You could hear the power surging while putting on the previous hole. Also rode from 9-10 and 18-lot. In rerospect, it could have been anywhere in the first four holes. 

[Jim Sweeney]

Very often land adjoining powerlines, highways, airports, rail lines, etc. is excelent for golf because it is available and cheap because of the location. There is no reason a good course cannot be built at a reasonable cost in many of these cases. ASU's Pete Dye course was built on what was basically a construction dump, near powerlines, near a highway, and under an PHX flight path. It won't make anyone's top 100list, but it is a decent course and when ASU decided to build a course, that property was a great option ans value.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Lloyd,
  I walked the course but accepted a cart ride there because the atonal humming was obnoxious, and eerie. You could hear the power surging while putting on the previous hole. Also rode from 9-10 and 18-lot. In rerospect, it could have been anywhere in the first four holes. 

Pete,
Fair enough. Noise can be disturbing, but for the most part I'm able to forgive almost any aural or visual intrusion if the golf is good. In fact I quite like the man meets nature vibe one gets at Lytham or Gailes or Southerness. What I have been unable to tolerate has been smell! The pig farm story is well known and even certain fertilizers can be quite rank. I guess we all have our weak spots.

[BCrosby]

And then there are cart paths.

Bob

[Tony Petersen]

And then there are cart paths.

The obvious rears its ugly head 

I don't have  a problem with natural paths (DF, SH, etc.) but blacktop & concrete... talk about a buzz kill

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Burzynski,

Old Marsh has FPL power lines bordering the 13th and 14th holes.
They're visible from afar and humm/buzz quite loudly.

Notre Dame's golf course was on the campus, directly behind a number of dorms.

I believe it was donated to the University many, many years ago.

However, as the University embarked upon expansion plans, the golf course was the natural site on which to build, hence, it's shelf life was coming to an end.

When a generous alumnus agreed to fund the creation of a new golf course, you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.  Hence, the William and Natalie Warren Course came to fruition.  It's also as close to the University as you could get a golf course.

I understand the genesis of the current clubhouse, but, always wondered why the southwest corner of the property wasn't chosen.  I'd imagine that using an existing building had permitting benefits.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Indian Summer in Olympia WA has a lovely set of high tension power lines, on a hot summer day they crackle like bacon in a hot skillet.......

Don't forget that those power lines, super fund sites and mines are providing large tracts of land that would otherwise be prohibitably expensive in an urban area.  Why do think Doak, Fazio and Nicklaus are building golf courses in the middle of nowhere?  The land, first of all, is cheap for the developers.  Is that too cynical?

[Jeff_Brauer]

On the other hand, things like railways have come to be accepted at the old Scottish courses where they paralell them.  They were a necessity in the days before cars just to get to the course.

In modern times, I bet if you look carefully, most golf courses are affected by such things, including even a few top 100's.  If you have long distance vistas, other land uses will often pop up in your view.

I talked with one land planner who says the current trend in clubhouse location is down low, rather than on the top of a hill.  With landscaping and a low spot, you can create your own view and not take a chance on it being ruined. I believe leaving the higher ground for development has something to do with it, too, but its still a valid concept for controllling some important views.

[John Burzynski]

John Burzynski,

Old Marsh has FPL power lines bordering the 13th and 14th holes.
They're visible from afar and humm/buzz quite loudly.

Notre Dame's golf course was on the campus, directly behind a number of dorms.

I believe it was donated to the University many, many years ago.

However, as the University embarked upon expansion plans, the golf course was the natural site on which to build, hence, it's shelf life was coming to an end.

When a generous alumnus agreed to fund the creation of a new golf course, you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.  Hence, the William and Natalie Warren Course came to fruition.  It's also as close to the University as you could get a golf course.

I understand the genesis of the current clubhouse, but, always wondered why the southwest corner of the property wasn't chosen.  I'd imagine that using an existing building had permitting benefits.

I can't explain the clubhouse location...the long walk from the parking lot to the clubhouse irritates me...it is just strange.

The SW corner of the campus actually still has a nine hole course, which was originally the old 18 hole Notre Dame course (Burke Memorial), until some of the original course's land was used for buildings.

The campus is 'landlocked' on the west by SR933 and across that HWY by a high school, junior college and ST. Mary's.  To the north is football parking and the Toll road, to the east for the most part is an existing neighborhood (now being built with lots of new condos and high dollar apartments), and to the south is minimal property and then a neighborhood.  The present northeast of campus location for Warren was the only logical location for  the new course. 

I don't object to the power lines (or the Toll Road that borders the northern end of the Warren Course) being near the course, but others seem to 'downgrade' the value of a course or hole due to preexisting manmade obstrctions such as electrical lines. 

I would rather have a nice course like Warren designed well by architects like C&C, even with a few man-made distractions, rather than have a course scrapped entirely and not built,  or designed by a lesser talented designer or architect.  It seems as if the attitude sometimes is 'it shouldn't have been built at all'....and in the case of Warren, money was donated, and the location was more or less fixed as having to be next to or on campus, which limits the choice of land.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

This is an excellent question.

The site for Rock Creek in Montana has some power lines in view at the bottom of the course ... they are high up on a hill, and cross the valley below the 17th green.  They're hidden from some angles by rock outcroppings, but you can see them from probably half the holes if you try, and you can certainly see them when you play down the 14th and 15th and 16th holes if you want to look in that direction.

For a while, we rejected that site altogether because of the power line view, and looked elsewhere on the property for the golf course (we had thousands of acres to choose from), but we didn't find another spot with nearly as many good natural holes.  After some deliberation we went back to the main valley and worked on the routing with the goal of avoiding any holes which played directly toward the offending towers.

Does it spoil the experience?  Not one bit, in my view ... after a few trips around the place, they just fade into the background and you don't care at all that they are out there.  Will it hold back the course's ranking?  Possibly, because there are some people who just look for some reason to knock every contender, and this gives them an easy reason to dislike the course.  [The same guys would rule out Royal St. George's as a great course because of the nuclear power plant down the road, except that some would make an exception because the power plant came after the course, and because they wouldn't want to look stupid.]

Certainly, there are degrees of exposure to such visual blights.  I was amazed to find that Firestone had a power line running through it, because you NEVER saw it on TV.  Of my own courses, Riverfront and Quail Crossing have to deal with power towers -- the ones at Quail Crossing are much bigger, and closer to play because the land plan had to keep them away from the houses.

[John Moore II]

Something no one has mentioned: if the power poles are small enough, could you not attempt to get permission from the company to 'dress' them up to look like trees? Many towns have ordinances on such things in order to maintain a certain apperance. It is possible to do such a thing for powerlines and things of that nature on a golf course, if they are directly near the property.

[John Mayhugh]

Objects like power lines certainly detract from one's first impression.  At Valhalla, the large power transmission lines are one of the first things you notice driving in.  They are also really obvious from the range and on several of the holes on the front nine, but other than the aesthetics of a photo, their presence doesn't have much effect on the enjoyment of round and no effect at all on the way the course plays. 

TV or radio transmission towers are a blight on Holston Hills, but it only takes a round or two before you just accept them and don't pay much attention beyond that.  Of course, these didn't impact design as the course preceded them.   

I would rather have these visual distractions and have the best course possible than to go to far in trying to make the course look its best.

[Marty Bonnar]

I don't know. Maybe I missed - again - the Post pointing out that most golf courses ARE man-made objects?

Can't wait to hear Lloyd Cole's new album 'Atonal Humming' at BUDA. I believe tracks will include:
'The ProV1 that glows in the dark'
'Children with Two Heads'
'My Dog has learned to speak'
and
'Why does it hurt when I pee?' (Oops, sorry, someone already did that one)
 
FBD.

[Michael Powers]

Jeff,
In reading your post on railways, we have them at a few courses in Mass, most notably Woodland, and Brae Burn.  Actually it's the Green Line of the "T".  Some think it's charming, not me.

My first job at Miami Shores Country Club had a railway going straight through it, freight trains, sometimes several miles long.  So one day I'm hitting balls on the back of the range and I hear the 'ol train whistle as always, but this time it doesn't stop.  So I look up and see a full size tractor stuck on the tracks, and there are 2 maintenance employees on the tractor!  One guy jumps off just in time, the other guy jumps off too late.  Train hits the tractor, it explodes, and the big back wheel hits the second guy from behind, sending him flying in the air.  Almost killed him.  It was a real horror show, medi-vac and all.

[Tom_Doak]

I failed to mention that we built a course with a very busy interstate highway running through the middle of it, and that one (along with Pacific Dunes) is ranked in the GOLF DIGEST 100 Greatest now.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The highway never hurt Oakmont's rating that you could tell.....

[Paul Richards]

Dismal River has a windmill directly in the line of a 'go-for-it' second shot at the par five fifth (?)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

That's an interesting observation (Oakmont)

I believe that's because the highway is well below the level of the golf course, and as such, there's no visual of the highway and the acoustics are muted due to the equivalent of the deep trough through which the highway passes.

Caves Valley paid to have the power lines run underground to avoid the eyesore.  But, that's an expensive proposition, and, the utility companies have to agree on the project.

I suggested the same to Gil Hanse at Innescrone with respect to the power/telephone lines behind the par 5 green on the front nine.

[Wade Whitehead]

I don't mean to sound flippant, honestly.

Is it possible that a power line (perhaps in the distance) is no more offensive to the eye than a series of railroad ties,  or an obtrusive cartpath, or an ugly rainshelter, or a McMansion directly behind a green?

WW

[Mike Nuzzo]

The 1st & 13th Holes at Memorial Park in Houston - one can use the Transco Tower as a target - which came after the course.  I don't know if the city tried to have it moved.... 

I think there is a big difference between a high power tower and a windmill.
Wintonbury Hills in CT has some High power that needs to be crossed between holes.  While it is not ideal - I doubt there was any other comporable land.
Brad has talked about the project in detail here.

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