[Ed Oden]

I was fortunate to play at Yeamans Hall a couple of days last week.  Ran's review of Yeamans is one of his finest.  There is not much I can add to his discussion.  So I thought I would post a few pictures from different angles than those in Ran's review.


This picture shows the approach to the 1st hole from the far left side of the fairway, which actually is not bad if the pin is on the left side so that the center fairway bunker short of the green does not interfere with your sightline.  I wonder if the raised front left tier is ever used as a pin placement?  It would be very difficult since it is so small and guarded by a huge false front, deep bunker left and severe interior slopes to the right and behind.


This shows the false front to the 4th green mentioned in Ran's review.  It is more severe on the right side than the left, making the pin placement on this day particularly hard.  Both of the balls short left hit the green almost pin high center and then trickled down to the left and off the green.  I've only played 5 Raynor courses that I know of (Yeamans, NGLA, CC of Charleston, Morris County and MPCC).  But Yeamans seems to have as many or more false fronts as any of those.


This one looks down the angled length of the redan 6th green.  Another very tricky pin placement at the crest of a ridge in the center of the green.  Its almost impossible to stop your ball anywhere close off the tee.  So you are left with a putt/chip up from the front right or back left that can get away in a hurry if you are too aggressive.  Is this pin placement similarly as difficult on other redans?


Invariably, my approach to the 7th comes from this spot.  There is something about this hole that always steers me too far right off the tee where the trees and azaleas come into play.


The angle of the green makes the approach to the 10th better from the left rough than the right side of the fairway.


The approach to the 11th.  Maybe its the shadows from the trees, but the left greenside bunker doesn't catch your eye as much as the trouble on the right.  Regardless, it is one of the deepest bunkers on the course.  Virtually no chance from there.


The 16th from the tee.  One of the toughest par 3s I've played.  225 yards typically into the wind from the right. 

For those who love fast and firm, Yeamans is your spot, especially this time of year.  Wind is ever present.  Even on full wedge shots it was hard to find a ball mark on the greens.  The pro said the greens were stimping at 13.  Who knows what they were for downhill, downgrain, downwind putts.  Yeamans is one of the few great courses that I've been lucky to play more than once or twice.  It gets better and grows on me each time I am there.  A truly special place.

Ed

[Art Roselle]

Thanks for the pictures Ed.  It is a great spot and has the toughest, fastest Bermuda greens I have ever played.  I am not sure if they are long enough to even have grain, but there is something about it that makes them very hard to read and it is easy to feel very stupid.  The only greens that have fooled me worse than Yeamans are at Rustic Canyon (but I have only played there once). 

To (sort of) answer your question about #1, I have never seen the pin on the front left plateau, but there are definitely old cup outlines up there, so they must use it sometimes.  I hit few puts to those spots just for fun and it is a real challenge to get it up there and keep it there (but it is possible).  You could easily see some people 8-putt (or just pick up).

 

[Ed Oden]

Art:

Agreed.  Best/trickiest bermuda greens I have seen.  They definitely have grain.  Sometimes you have 3, 4 or 5 changes in grain on the same putt (i.e., shiny, dark, shiny, dark...).  And the shiny always goes downhill so if you are putting over a ridge (which happens on virtually every hole), as you say, it can make you look very foolish.  Does Seminole have bermuda greens?  I wonder how they compare? 

Ed

[Art Roselle]

Not sure about Seminole.  I would assume they have to be Bermuda and I have heard they are deadly, but I have never been there.

Now that I think about it Camden CC's might be trickier than Yeamans' because they have SO MUCH grain.  Yeamans' are fast in all directions, so the differences are subtle and seem of catch you more on middle and short putts.  At Camden, it will Stimp at 6 for the first half of the putt and 13 for the second.  Impossible.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Seminole has Tifeagle greens that are not overseeded. Yeamans has Champion greens with very little overseed for some color, last I knew.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[John Shimp]

I thinkCamden has Tifeagle greens.  Much grainier than Champion Bermuda.  Art describes it right, when you see the dark green you almost cant hit it hard enough.  On the shiny, downgrain side its lightening.  I'm surprised courses choose Tifeagle over Champion Bermuda or MiniVerde which can be cut low like Tifeagle but are far less grainy.  Any weather tolerance differences?

[Jamey Bryan]

John

In Camden's case, TifEagle was the ultradwarf of choice (Champion and MiniVerde weren't yet available) when the course was renovated and the greens rebuilt.  My understanding is that we're going to be trying some new maintenance routines this year to get the grain under control.

Jamey

[james soper]

Art:
Does Seminole have bermuda greens?  I wonder how they compare? 

Ed

ed, seminole's greens are some of the fastest on the planet. If the wind is up and your not putting well, it could make for a very long day. jim

[BigEdSC]

Just to add to Ed's comments

#1.  I've played quite a few times where the pin is front left on 1.  Best way to approach it is to hit the green to the right of the front plateau, and try to two putt from there.  To attack the pin is pretty suicidal.

#4.  There really isn't a front pin placement on the green.  The only pin positions are middle and back.  especially this time of year.  The dormant bermuda makes the greens super slick.

#11.  The bunker left is tough.  But try to get the ball out of the front left bunker at 14.

#16  At 225 with bunkers left and right, what else is there to say?

Usually this time of year, Yeamans is in its best conditions.  The greens are slick and you really have to control your ball.  It really makes golf fun

[Art Roselle]

Jamey,
I am not surprised that they want to "get control" of the grain a little, but I loved it (in a masochistic sort of way).  It is certainly a challenge and it adds one more demon to my already unsteady brainwaves.  Neat course all the way around.

[Ian Larson]

Awesome course. I went to college in South Carolina and had the chance to play there a couple times. I have drawings of all 18 holes with notes by George Bahto if anyone is interested in them. I could also post them I suppose. Let me know....

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I got a chance to play it last month.  What a treat.  It's one of those courses you can play every day and never get tired of it.

[RJ_Daley]

Ian, with all due respect, how did you acquire those notes and drawings by George?  If you acquired them as a gift from George, or some other means, like they were already for sale (I'n not aware George ever published or sold such) then I guess it is fine to post or offer them (even if free) via internet or e-mail.  I'd love to have them myself.

But, if Geoge has objections because he never intended them to be distributed, or they are material he may wish to publish in a subsequent book or other medium, I definitely would not like to see them "pre-distributed". 

Perhaps George will in deed weigh in and clarify on this point.

Please don't think I'm picking a fight here, as I certainly believe your offer Ian, is honestly motivated and only wishing to share what some of us might consider a real treasure to have.

It is just that we all love George for all the wonderful contributions he has made to us here on GCA.com and to golfers everywhere, and wouldn't want to see any of his work product distributed against his wishes or intentions.   

[John Shimp]

Switching gears on this topic.  Does anybody agree who has played there recently that Yeaman's bunkers need sand?  I love this place and really enjoy putting the greens.  However, on 2 recent trips when I left myself in greenside bunkers there just wasn't enough sand in many of them to get a wedge under the ball.  Some were fine but many were really thin on the sand.  I wasn't able to ask anyone if this was intentional.  In prior years I've never seen this to be a real problem.  The rest of the course was in the best shape that I've ever seen it so it made me at least consider that this was the way they want the greenside bunkers to play.

Of course if I could play better I wouldn't get in any greenside bunkers.....

[tlavin]

Awesome course. I went to college in South Carolina and had the chance to play there a couple times. I have drawings of all 18 holes with notes by George Bahto if anyone is interested in them. I could also post them I suppose. Let me know....

Please post them.

This is one of those incredibly beguiling golf courses that I would never have heard of were it not for this website.

[George_Bahto]

Ian:

Are you sure the drawings and notes are mine or are you talking about a set of note added to some of my drawings that were done by, then asst super, Jeff Fraim, who along with some help from Jimmy Yonce put out a booklet?

I do have my own set - so I’d be curious about the ones you’re talking about.

Jeff and Yonce redid the drawings also, if I'm not mistaken.


I had the "misfortune" of playing Yeamans Hall well before Tom Doak and Jim Urbina reworked the course ..... I didn't date my original notes but that had to be about 1986 or so. It was one of the most disappointing rounds of golf considering what I was expecting!

I had read how this course was so highly rated back in the "old days" (the 1920s and 1930s) - it was regularly in the top 5 in the south.

Well, the older New England-based membership, back in the "middle years", had leveled the greens and removed some 70 bunkers (or more). The course played like a simple muni.

It was so disappointing because I had the original plans in hand and was looking forward to what was on the drawings.

Yeamans is one of favorite places.

Dick D, thanks!

George Bahto

[Ian Larson]

George,

A friend of mine who is also passionate about golf architecture passed them on to me. Each page has a hand drawing of the hole and a couple handwitten paragraphs on the right explaining the features and strategy of the hole. The top of the page has "Yeamans Hall Club" in bold letters and at the bottom it has the number of the hole and its name.

I do apologize George. RJ is right. I posted that around 5 or 6 in the morning before I got the crew started and didnt have my coffee yet. I definetely should have asked you before offering it up.

Tomorrow I will scan them and send them just to you George and you should be the one to post them as you wish....

[C. Squier]

I was fortunate to play YH a few years ago.  It was our last round of the trip to the Charleston area and even playing it was putting our flight out of town in danger.  But we did, and enjoyed every last second.  It was also in July and HOTTT.  We decide its in our best interest to take a quick shower....and where we discovered the last bit of charm on our trip.

Grab a towel, sling it over the shoulder and head to the showers.....only 1 knob.  And it wasn't the hot one either.  Kick open the shower curtain to see that the showers were literally the size of a small coffin.  It was the quickest, spookiest shower I've ever taken in my life.  Body temp dropped from about 110* to 56* and I felt like an eskimo being buried alive. 

Just a great golf course.  Greens are just plain fun and the way they maintain the course should be a GCA 101 course.  Fast, firm and if you hit the ball on the fairway, you're great.  If not, you're in weeds.  Rough is rough, but very playable. 

CPS

[Ed Oden]

Switching gears on this topic.  Does anybody agree who has played there recently that Yeaman's bunkers need sand?  I love this place and really enjoy putting the greens.  However, on 2 recent trips when I left myself in greenside bunkers there just wasn't enough sand in many of them to get a wedge under the ball.  Some were fine but many were really thin on the sand.  I wasn't able to ask anyone if this was intentional.  In prior years I've never seen this to be a real problem.  The rest of the course was in the best shape that I've ever seen it so it made me at least consider that this was the way they want the greenside bunkers to play.

Of course if I could play better I wouldn't get in any greenside bunkers.....

John, I can see why some might not like the bunkers.  But I loved them and thought they were very playable.  They were firm but with enough sand for explosion shots.  And they were very consistent one to another.  To me those are perfect conditions since you almost always had a good lie (as opposed to fluffy sand where the ball can sink).  For the most part, we didn't have much trouble getting out of them last week.  Of course, with the wild greens, a great bunker shot doesn't necessarily mean you can get up and down for par.

Ed

[John Shimp]

Ed,
Thanks for your reply and view.

My comment on a lack of sand in some bunkers had nothing to do with liking or not liking the bunkers.  The bunkering is great at yeamans and fits the course and its pitched up greens.  Consistency in the depth of sand or lack of depth was my issue.  I've played 54 holes there in the last month and in maybe 1 of 3 greenside bunker shots there just wasn't enough sand to get the ball up.  Also, in general, I would say that the amt of sand in the bunkers if they were considered to be consistent was on the low side in my view for the height needed on so many of the greenside shots.  I was trying to figure out if the amt of sand had gotten lighter than that intentioned or not. 

Let me put it another way:  I haven't played another world class golf course like Yeamans Hall with greenside bunkers that deep and ever seen as little sand as YH's.  Any other courses that intentionally keep the bunkers very tight?

[George_Bahto]

Ian: thanks - been out of commission for a couple of days

sounds like Jeff's work - I had pencilnote-scribbling all over the drawings as well

regards

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