[Lloyd_Cole]

Melvyn--all-

Carts are keeping the game alive. I am  thankful for the invention.

Mike

Mike

I think you mean they are keeping the industry alive. If the game of golf needs carts, other than in extreme climates or terrains, then it already dead.

[Doug Ralston]

Melvyn,

I think you make excellent points and should have no need to apologize.  Many Americans would do well to walk rather than ride for other reasons as well.  While I am amazed at the number of young people fully capable of walking that ride, it is also necessary for a number of Americans to ride because they are so out of shape.  Either because of a lack of excercise or because most have allowed themselves to get too fat.  I was visitng a nursing/rehabilitation home the past few days visitng family and it pained me to see the number of overweight people who are ailing because they can barely move due to their weight, and people who have no muscle whatsoever because they seemingly never exercised.  Golf would be an excellent form of excercise for many Americans if they would walk while playing.  There are many other benefits to walking while playing but for the dramatic number of fat, out-of-shape Americans golf could be their saviour.  It is remarkable that a country who worships athletes and professional sports could be so terribly out of shape.

Clubs would do well to promote fitness and walking to the benefit of many of their patrons, but there would be a conflict of interest, just as they would do well to promote junior golf American clubs know most men don't want to see kids on their course so the clubs take care of their short term interest without regard for the long term negative impacts.

So Kelly;

I am glad you agree with us liberals about how fat our social habits are making our poor children. You will be with us, I am certain, when we ban McFood joints from our landscape, mandate vegetarian diets in schools, and force schools and colleges to spend equal money on all in atheletic departments [not just men's sports stadiums].

THEN, and only then, will I support any banning of carts on golf courses [against the club policy, I mean]. TILL then, I must go with free choice, and all the 'damage' to golf that may, or may not, imply.

Thanks for your implied support.

Doug

[Mark Pearce]

This thread has been a bit over heated at times and I don't want to get involved in that.  However, I have to say I find it more than a little depressing on a board populated by people who love the game of golf to see people in favour of carts.  Golf is a far better game played on foot and that should be the strong preference of any real golfer.

[Doug Ralston]

This thread has been a bit over heated at times and I don't want to get involved in that.  However, I have to say I find it more than a little depressing on a board populated by people who love the game of golf to see people in favour of carts.  Golf is a far better game played on foot and that should be the strong preference of any real golfer.

He he;

Mark, I was completely agreeing with you till you last two words. What is 'REAL golfer'? And those of us who sometimes ride, even when it is not neccessary, are not 'real' golfers?

Sorry, I know you did not want to contribute to this rhetoric. But try not to classify those whose opinions differ from yours are somehow less. Much as others may not believe it, my 'heat' only comes from that.

Doug

[Kalen Braley]

I think there are some parallels that can be drawn to other sports.  I see this a fundamental question of leisure golf vs. professional golf.  In professional/competitive golf, everyone walks except in rare cases...its an integral part of the game, I have no issue with that.  Even in top level amateur tournaments, I'm guessing most are required to walk, once again not a problem, I think its great.  But should this same mindset be carried to the weekend warrior, leisure golfer who is just looking to have a good time? Sure it might be preferrable, but I don't think there needs to be stigma attached that "real golfers" don't ride.

Think football.  The professional guys play full contact, everyone else plays flag football.
Think baseball.  The professionals play fast pitch on the big diamond, everyone else plays slow pitch on the smaller diamond.
Think basketball.  Professional play on a NBA court with lengthened 3 point line.  The older guys just play half court.

People play the game of thier passion, because they enjoy it.  And if this means playing on whatever terms you need to play on, then by all means do it.  Going back to golf, it shouldn't have to be a case of "I can't walk 18, so I won't play".  For heavens sake, jump in the cart, swing the sticks, and go have some fun.  Do people who are paralyzed or otherwise can't walk stop participating in sports?  Hell no, they strap up in thier wheelchairs and play thier own version of basketball, football, mountain climbing, etc....even golf. 

Its golf, not rocket science!!! 

[John Kavanaugh]

In my 40 years of playing and observing golf I have concluded that the majority of walkers are either cheap or poorly employed.  I don't think they would take caddies at $20 a loop after the pinch on their precious wallets was felt.

[John Kavanaugh]

I even know some walkers who wear their shoes to the course because they are too cheap to rent a locker.  If a club is lucky they may go for a half locker just to keep the stolen cart towels.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Golfers who take up the game later in life and who become conditioned by the cart seem to be of a lower rank in my view.-KB Moran

And you call yourself Irish?  Saints preserve us. 

[Lloyd_Cole]

In my 40 years of playing and observing golf I have concluded that the majority of walkers are either cheap or poorly employed.  I don't think they would take caddies at $20 a loop after the pinch on their precious wallets was felt.

John,

But we're lean to go with the mean. Not so lean these days actually...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kalen

I take your point about other sports, but you have mentioned mainly sport played in America – I won’t go it to that as I don’t want to be attached as an extremist. So let’s look at other sports played by other countries in the world. Football fields don’t change, Cricket grounds, don’t change, Tennis courts are the same, Rugby pitches ditto, Athletics -track & field are the same. So most thing outside America would appear to be constant. No can’t be, can it?

Perhaps I must have misunderstood you, no matter, as you say it’s not rocket science!!!

John

So I’m cheap or poorly employed – a surprise comment from you.

[Lou_Duran]

KBM,

One of the best amateur golfers I played with always rode a cart and started each round with a new sleeve of Titleist.  He won our club's championship probably a dozen times over the years, played competitively in college, and was a touring pro for two or three years (he and Raymond Floyd were rookies together) before coming home to take over his dad's struggling business.  While we played a lot of golf together and were good friends for awhile, he confided to me that he didn't enjoy playing with walkers for two reasons: 1) he felt like he was always waiting for them to catch up, and 2) he hated to hear their clubs clanging and seeing them moving out of the corner of his eyes as he was going through his preshot routine.  As to why he always rode, he said he grew up walking in the hot Texas sun at the local muni and swore that as soon as he had a couple of nickels to rub together, he would never walk again.  I've actually seen him walk a couple of times when carts weren't allowed due to wet grounds and he clearly was not enjoying himself.  This guy is as REAL of a golfer as anyone I have ever met, a better player than 95%+ of the good folks here, and a fine human being.

JK,

Very Barneyfesque.  Too cheap to ride or employ a caddie!  Put me in that category.  Of course, I've been known to nearly always walk when carts were free to me, and I would just as soon carry my own bag as to have someone else do it for me even if their services were being paid on my behalf.  Is it the thickness of my wallet at issue here?  Perhaps, but it might have something to do with what we assign value to.  Might I feel differently if daddy was footing the bill?  My daughter's propensity to tip generously (typically above 20%) seems to suggest that there might be something to that.          

[Joe Hancock]

Don't you guys understand when Barney said "majority" he didn't mean you?......sensitivities are running high, I think we all need a good blast of warm air to get us outdoors.

Joe

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen

I take your point about other sports, but you have mentioned mainly sport played in America – I won’t go it to that as I don’t want to be attached as an extremist. So let’s look at other sports played by other countries in the world. Football fields don’t change, Cricket grounds, don’t change, Tennis courts are the same, Rugby pitches ditto, Athletics -track & field are the same. So most thing outside America would appear to be constant. No can’t be, can it?

Perhaps I must have misunderstood you, no matter, as you say it’s not rocket science!!!

Melvyn,


I was really only trying to focus on the fact that all of these sports/hobbies/otherwise are interfaced by everyone on different levels based on thier abilities ranging from world class athletes to those with physical disabilites. It seems to me that one shouldn't exlcude themselves based on strict adherence to rules or tradition.  To me its all about finding a way to participate and go out there and do it.

While I do agree that it seems silly that perfectly healthy 20 somethings are riding carts, if this is the way they want to interface with the activity then I don't hold it against them.  There are plenty out there who have a good reason to use them that aren't neccessarily related to a doctor-note type of disability.  They could be tired, have sore muscles, a gimpy knee, 110 degrees outside, or just too taxing to walk 36 holes in a day.

First and foremost golf should be fun, and if walking the round is painful or otherwise, then by all means take a cart and enjoy it.

[John Burzynski]

Maybe this carts / no carts / walking argument also involves elements of another age old argument....is golf a sport?

I would challenge that if you consider golf to be primarily a sport or athletic endeavor, then maybe you also think that motorized carts should not be allowed, as part of the athletic endeavor of golf is the challenge and possibility of fatigue from walking, especially in the extreme heat or elements.  Riding a cart for 18 certainly takes away at least a small part of the athletic challenge from the game.

If you consider golf to be more of a social pursuit, or that golf is a pasttime/ easy day social, then probably you aren't as bothered by motorized carts.  You see carts as aiding in the enjoyment of the pursuit of golf, socializing and part of a day at ease.  Golf is less about the athletics and more about the social or nature aspects for you.

I am not sure that either above view of golf is 'incorrect', and either view is only a part of the total thoughts each of us have on this question.   

Few people dispute the need for carts for those physically unable to walk a course due to age or physical disability.  Some common sense on the subject, along with looking at the course lengths between hole, the heat or weather conditions at the course (you couldn't play too much golf in Arizona's 110 degree heat in the summer without carts, could you?), and the traditions surrounding the course are probably in order. 

I don't mind carts too much, as long as pace of play is not affected.  I choose to walk almost exclusively, due to a number of factors including exercise, the enjoyment of a course / nature, and the tradition of walking.  My reasons, my choice.  Others take carts for their reason, as long as it is played within the course's rules, well, I guess we can't complain as much as lobby to get the course to change their rules. 

[Lou_Duran]

KBM,

They may be far-fetched to those who hold alternative views, but certainly not too him and many others.  The clanging irons thing is a very real pet-peeve not just to riders, but to some walkers as well.  As somewhat of an ombudsman with my old groups, I have been asked in a couple of occasions to counsel our walking players on that very issue.  As a walker, I catch myself sometimes making unnecessary rackett and moving while others are not finished making their strokes in an attempt to play fast.  As to hot weather, the older I get, the hotter it is, and it ain't about global warming.   Were you in north Texas during the summers of 1979-1981?  Caliente plus, but I managed on foot without too much wear and tear.  Today, I would die.

Joe,

Now, certainly you don't mean me, do you?  I never take BarneyF personally or seriously.  Of course, you realize that my comments were not directed at JK or the "majority" personally or seriously, right?  Aren't we all just having fun?    

[Peter Pallotta]

This is a Kyle Harris post from early in this thread. I'm not sure anyone has yet commented on it, but I think it's maybe the most important aspect of this discussion:

I will say the golf car has allowed developers to avoid the question as to whether or not a site "should" have a golf course...

If a course is going to have extended walks between holes, take forever to play, and cost a bunch to maintain - should it really be built?

Yes, most golfers will pay anything to play anywhere but diluting the market with tripe isn't the way to go either. Does anybody think anymore?

[Craig Sweet]

Yes, Kyle does ask a very important question...and I will answer it as an American, thinking only about America....we build lots of "tripe"....and dilute our culture with tripe....how many WalMarts, McDonalds, Party America, stores and shops do we need? How many over priced, over done golf courses do we need?  Yes, it's tripe and for some reason we Americans feel obligated to build more and more tripe....and one final thing about "tripe"....the Stock Farms and Rock Creek Cattle Companies are really nothing more than tripe for the rich...a place to hang out and feel good about their wealth and an attempt to purchase something that is missing from their life....


20 somethings riding carts.....they do it because golf is nothing more than a distraction for them...a time to drink some beers and hang out...they might as well be bowling....the game and its tradition is really of little importance to them....if you're going out to drink beer, have some laughs, why walk?

[Kyle Harris]

This is a Kyle Harris post from early in this thread. I'm not sure anyone has yet commented on it, but I think it's maybe the most important aspect of this discussion:

I will say the golf car has allowed developers to avoid the question as to whether or not a site "should" have a golf course...

If a course is going to have extended walks between holes, take forever to play, and cost a bunch to maintain - should it really be built?

Yes, most golfers will pay anything to play anywhere but diluting the market with tripe isn't the way to go either. Does anybody think anymore?

Peter I feel extended walks, pace of play and high maintenance costs can be issues totally unrelated to each other.  I don't think it is a given that golf courses with long walks between holes are necessarily high maintenace courses.  So Kyle's generalizations don't always come together on one project to conspire to create the conditions he abhors.  Some course are tightly routed, easy to walk and still take forever to play (high grass, excessive water) and cost a large amount to maintain. 

I designed a mountain course that has long rides, probably requires a cart for 99.9% of players, and I know some here have said it would be a better ski resort than a golf course.  According to some, it has been a real assest to the golf community in the area.  The developer wanted a golf course whether I designed it or someone else designed, whether Kyle likes it or not.  A tremendous number of people benefited from its creation in terms of construction jobs, and permanent jobs.  Fortunately for us in this country if you play by the rules and are willing to risk your money you can make good things happen.  I don't think the developer was dumb or created tripe, but it is always easy to sit on the outside with no stake in a project and throw rocks at those that make things happen.

I rode Morgan Hill and loved it. I would have walked if it wasn't 40 degrees, windy with Cory and I looking to play 36 that day.

I have to ride at Lederach because "it's too long of a walk." I know that Kelly built where he could at Lederach and Morgan Hill, but to take away my option because of that is where my problem lies. Allow me to make the determination.

I will say that both courses are worth taking the cart. That's not something I've found in Florida yet. Kelly, using your own examples isn't representing the majority here. You build stuff from tee to green that is worth it. Somehow, your golf courses still flow in spite of site limitations. I've never seen or played anything else quite like it. Thank you.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think it's ironic that this has happened at Eisenhower as the late President's use of the golf car(t) probably made popular its use.  Here is a picture of Ike and his caddy at ANGC in 1953:

[Lou_Duran]

Peter,

Amazing what pearls of wisdom we find in what other's consider "tripe".    I suppose we should all just let the sophisticated, nuanced, thoughtful elite determine what is good for us and be thankful to them.  Choices and preferences?  Who needs them when we can have a tiny majority dictate to the rest of us what can be built and what we should like.  And who fails "to think anymore".  Please!

KBM,

Do you wear an I-Pod when you play?  We had a guy at Great Southwest who was so bad that you could hear him several hundred yards away if he was walking downwind.  It may have been his gait, or the position of the bag on his hip, but you always knew when Bill was coming.  Poor chap played a lot of golf by himself.  I'll give him credit though, I don't think I've ever seen him on a cart.

As to carts negatively impacting the speed of play, I think that this is a far, far lesser problem than with walkers.  And while uncaring cartballers no doubt cause great harm to the conditions of a course, uncaring walkers also do their fair share.  The few times I ride I go through several containers of sand (when refills are available) filling in divots, many of them left by walkers.

Yes, in my world everyone who could walk would, courses would be designed so they are easily walkable, and there would be no cigarrette butts or unfilled divots to bitch about.  Alas, God has refused me his proxy, other folks have different preferences, and golf is doing relatively well, thank you very much, without my guiding hand

[Phil_the_Author]

For me the greatest irony in this is how everyone seems to have just ignored my early post on the 1st page where I stated that one must realize exactly who make up the vast majority of those who play the three courses
at Eisenhower Park.

This is the exception to the rule. At Eisenhower carts actually speed up play...

[Brent Hutto]

And while uncaring cartballers no doubt cause great harm to the conditions of a course, uncaring walkers also do their fair share.  The few times I ride I go through several containers of sand (when refills are available) filling in divots, many of them left by walkers.

Ah, the great dirty secret of walking golfers playing on Bermuda. I do try to start the round with a bottle of sand in my bag but at courses where you don't have refill/exchange stations every few holes I'm afraid I leave my share of gouges for the more generous among the cart-golfers to fill.

[Kyle Harris]

For me the greatest irony in this is how everyone seems to have just ignored my early post on the 1st page where I stated that one must realize exactly who make up the vast majority of those who play the three courses
at Eisenhower Park.

This is the exception to the rule. At Eisenhower carts actually speed up play...

Phil,

Eisenhower Park was also built for the walker. No long green to tee treks.

[Kyle Harris]

And while uncaring cartballers no doubt cause great harm to the conditions of a course, uncaring walkers also do their fair share.  The few times I ride I go through several containers of sand (when refills are available) filling in divots, many of them left by walkers.

Ah, the great dirty secret of walking golfers playing on Bermuda. I do try to start the round with a bottle of sand in my bag but at courses where you don't have refill/exchange stations every few holes I'm afraid I leave my share of gouges for the more generous among the cart-golfers to fill.

Easily solved - make the walkers pull a trolley.

[Jay Flemma]

Stop me if I'm wrong, but didn't they limit the cart requirement to weekends only?  I won't play there just because I think it's overpriced and I also don't like the cart rule, but to be fair, they reacted to intensde pressure form the Met Golf Writers and rescinded the original rule which was "no walking period."

And hey, how bout some props for the Met Golf Writers who acted quickly and wrote about how much the ban was a terrible rule?  With a few critical articles, they got the city to take quick action.

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