[kconway]

Please this week, and in general I was dissapointed.

The 8 holes along the water are spectatular.

The 10 inland holes are not to the same standard in design, challenge or ambience. 

In addition, i found the place lacks a real golf feeling.

Comments?

[Bob_Huntley]

Are you plaing inthe Sugar Tourney?

Bob

[Adam Clayman]

Disappointment at low profile subtlety is common. The course was literally built by hand, an amazing feat these days.

[cary lichtenstein]

Consider this:

This course was built years ago with local labor by hand and the 8 holes along the ocean beat Pebble Beach to death.

Then consider the inland holes at Pebble and you will find they are ordinary as well.

It's the history, wind, tradition that make Pebble so great.

[cary lichtenstein]

Adam:

Our posts were 57 seconds apart and made the same points

Cary

[Jim Nugent]

Cary, do you think Caso is a better course than Pebble?

[mike_beene]

Is the old runway still there.It was quite an experience to have the bells go off and an American 757 land where you could nearly touch it.The gasoline carts were loud.I think there are 7 ocean holes,not 8.I like both the ocean holes,which draw the ocean in play and seem to sit lower,and the inland holes better than Pebble.The inland holes at Casa are good on their own merits.Only a few at Pebble really are.Plus the ocean visits are more spaced at Casa.

[wsmorrison]

I played it twice in miserable conditions a year or so after a big hurricane.  I did not get the excitement over the course at all.  Sure, the seaside holes are pretty and quite good, but I was underwhelmed most of the time.  It was probably 8-9 years ago and my interest in golf architecture was at an early stage.  Still, I have no desire to visit.  The ride from the Santo Domingo airport to the resort was pretty depressing.  The runway hole was annoying.  Sorry to be so down on the course, but I didn't find a lot to really like.  I didn't like the way the caddies cheated for their players either.  I caught one constantly giving his player a good lie, kicking them out of the bushes into an easy recovery angle, picking them up out of bunkers and doing everything but put the ball on a tee to give his player a great lie.  I told the caddy we were playing for money and he pretended like he didn't speak English though he had no trouble conversing with his player in the language. 

[mike_beene]

Wayne,I did not like the resort at all.I got an aggressive caddie I should have fired but felt sorry for him.Frankly I let it ruin my trip.I forgot about all that after drinking the water on the last day. You would think the drinking water on a major resort course would be OK.

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary, do you think Caso is a better course than Pebble?

No, something just great about Pebble, but a far as great holes go, only 7 and 8 are really spectacular, but I could play it every day.

[henrye]

Interesting that one of the other great Carribean courses - Tryall -has almost all their great holes inland.

[Jesse Jones]

 You just have to give it credit for being a great resort course.
I think it's a wonderful test. 
Yes, the inland holes bring the course down a bit, but its still the best I've seen in the region.

[kconway]

A good course for the region eas not the standard i was expecting as it rated in the top 50 courses in the world.

By that standard I was dissapointed.

[Jed Peters]

That's too bad.

I played there in the uncrowded summer, where it's mostly member play.

I thought it was OUTSTANDING as a golf course. But then again I got 6 rounds out there to play.

The quality of the holes were fantastic, inland and the ocean holes were the best I've ever played (for seaside holes, and taken together).

Only "blah" holes for me really are 9 and 18, and 9 isn't such a bad par-5. 18 is a pretty weak finisher IMHO.

Let's see-- ranking the inland holes--

1 is a good starter, but not all *that* great.
2 is a GREAT hole from the back tee
3 is a GREAT hole from the back tee
4 new tee is pretty good, better than the driver 9 iron it was before...now it's long and sharply doglegged right
9 isn't very good
10 is a GREAT hole, I really think it's fun--presents challenges and options for cutting the corner--puts pressure on tee shot, etc
11 not that good of a golf hole, pretty easy if you play far enough left with the second shot
12 is a GREAT hole, have to hit a big drive and then big cut to hit that green
13 I didn't really like the "island" green around that sand. Dunno, just seemed kinda lame
14 pretty damn good risk/reward short par 5, with kind of a tricky layup to get the yardage right
18 blah hole

So I think for inland holes, there's a lot of good ones. And ALL the ocean holes are all-world.

Out of 20 times playing there, pebble, or Pac dunes, I'd go:

9 Casa de Campo
7 Pebble
4 Pac Dunes

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I am also of the opinion that Teeth of the Dog is a better layout than Pebble.  Having played there several times, I keep finding cool little ground nuances--tee ball on 10, 2nd shot on 11, tee ball on 17( not really a flat fairway), 18 has a lot of ground movement in the fairway.
    In addtion to Teeth, Dye Fore sets a new architectural standard.  This course has all the favorite GCA pet favorites--Extremely wide fairways, firm and fast, cool ground game options, stategic postioning off the tee, a drivable par 4,ect.

[Will E]

I'm a big fan of Casa de Campo and consider TOD to be one of the most interesting courses I've played.
As RMD pointed out, the detail work on this course in amazing, always something new shows up that you weren't aware of before. I'm not sure I've played a course that was as well thought out.
IMHO a solid world top 50, I don't deduct for poor caddy behavior.
Rob and Jed have it right.

[wsmorrison]

wellender,

I'm not a rater so I didn't have anything to deduct from.  I found the design solid but unspectacular.  I found the overall experience, primarily the golf but other aspects as well that leads to a general feeling to be less than anticipated and nothing close to world top 50, or 100 for that matter.

[Brad Klein]

Wayne, Im looking forward to reading your chapter on Flynn's early work there in the Dominican Republic. I gather he did the original routing on the "Denture of the Dog" course that United Fruit was going to build in the 1920s.

[Bryan Izatt]

I'm going with the TOD is great side of this argument.  Jed's got a pretty good evaluation of the inland holes, although even the ones he feels are blah have terrific green complexes - 1 and 18 for example.  As a comparison to Pebble, how about #2 at Pebble and #3 at TOD.  Short par 5's early in the round.  The green complex at TOD blows away the green at PB and dictates strategy back to the tee.  The ocean holes as a group are better than Pebble's. 

Wayne, when you're finished laughing at the dentures, can you expound on why the course didn't grab you.  We know the drive in wasn't so nice; the caddies helped your opponent; and, the resort isn't The Lodge at Pebble.  But, what was it about the course that was lacking.  I would have thought that the subtlety of the design would have appealed to the Merion guy in you.

[Mike_Young]

Wayne, Im looking forward to reading your chapter on Flynn's early work there in the Dominican Republic. I gather he did the original routing on the "Denture of the Dog" course that United Fruit was going to build in the 1920s.

The most "genius" part of the Flynn routing was his ability to incorporate a runway with the length to land a modern Jet....in an era of Rotary piston airplane engines.....however upon reviewing the Ross routing for the same property the runway was directed East to West and had an additional length availble of 2500 feet for the newer 777 Boeings.....   WOW these guys WERE good

[Joe Hancock]

Mike Young,

You have taken the role of a cynic to a new, higher level. You really need to get over your bad altitude. Maybe if you landed a gig doing a Flynn remodel, you would be considered a good steward of golf and receive the props you deserve.

 

[Mike_Young]

Mike Young,

You have taken the role of a cynic to a new, higher level. You really need to get over your bad altitude. Maybe if you landed a gig doing a Flynn remodel, you would be considered a good steward of golf and receive the props you deserve.

 

Joe,
You are correct.....I am a cynic.....please forgive me.......BUT I think I might have done a Flynn remodel...maybe it will help in my quest for becoming a good stewardess for golf....or what ever you call it......

[Adam Clayman]

A legitimate criticism Ran made was about risking the ocean side, (the one with the concrete wall #6?) without any real reward. I thought it was also true on the penultimate hole.
 

[Art Roselle]

    In addtion to Teeth, Dye Fore sets a new architectural standard.  This course has all the favorite GCA pet favorites--Extremely wide fairways, firm and fast, cool ground game options, stategic postioning off the tee, a drivable par 4,ect.

I enjoyed TOD, but I don't think my expectations were as high as some people's.  I had heard it was the best in the Caribbean and that the ocean holes were spectacular and it met both of those standards and so I was happy.  I do agree with Robert that Dye Fore is really something to see.  I actually liked it better than TOD (which I suppose undermines my "Best in the Caribbean" comment above, but whatever).  I have played ocean holes before, but nothing like some of those holes up on the cliffs.  I think some of those spots on the Dye Fore course might be even more spectacular than TOD and I thought the architecture and strategic options were more interesting. 

It has a lame name, but Dye Fore is a neat spot.  I am surprised it does not get more commentary either here on in the various magazines.

[wsmorrison]

The most "genius" part of the Flynn routing was his ability to incorporate a runway with the length to land a modern Jet....in an era of Rotary piston airplane engines.....however upon reviewing the Ross routing for the same property the runway was directed East to West and had an additional length availble of 2500 feet for the newer 777 Boeings..... Grin Grin Grin  WOW these guys WERE good Grin Grin Grin Grin

Now that was funny!  Thanks, Mike.

Bryan,

The holes along the sea are all parallel to the water.  The three front nine holes go in one direction and the three  back nine holes face the other direction.  Why no triangulation?  Why so systematic?  Why aren't any of the holes played with the sea in the background, perpendicular to the coastline?  I think a lot of the subtlety was lacking as the course was in pretty lousy shape after the hurricane the year before.   The bunkers had almost no sand in them.  So, I freely admit that I was not impressed by the condition, the caddies and overall experience.  But that aside, I found the architecture solid but not great.  Interestingly, I can usually remember every shot, every hole and a lot of details after playing a course.  I just don't remember much about the course, it left me flat and wondering what all the fuss is about.   I do not attach any significance to ocean views when considering a golf course.  I don't think you can tie architectural or natural features into the ocean in the way you can topographic features like rolling ground, mountains, meandering streams, depressions, etc.  The only tie in is to the coastline.   The artificiality of the stonework along the water is a constant reminder that it is man-made.  The same is true of the masonary wall at Cypress Point fronting 16.  While necessary to maintain the hole, and it is one of the most beautiful and best holes in golf, it is a detraction none the less.

Brad,

Since you brought up the subject of Flynn's routings, would you please remark about the differences between Flynn and Ross on the CC of York thread?  I like levity as much as the next guy, but that is a serious discussion that would benefit from your perspective.  You know Ross's routing tendencies probably as well as anyone's.  Your absence from that discussion was sorely missed.  I know you were online in the middle of the discussion as you were posting on other topics.  Perhaps you'd like to consider the matter carefully and engage in the topic.  I remained surprised that it gets so little attention from the general membership here.  Perhaps you missed the thread.  It is currently on page 3 if you want to take a look.

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