[Forrest Richardson]

I ran across this. It is from the USGA Competitions Manual. This is an excerpt...the first two of several guidelines for setting hole locations. I wondered when reading it what reference a committee or greenkeeper would have regarding the original intent — or, for that matter, what shot is "required" into a green. While there is the complaining member, the personal preference and the assumption — not much if anything gets left behind that is useful. When we do leave something behind it is often lost and rarely referred to in course set-up.


1. Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.

2. There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I should probably know this answer but....   When you design a course do you plot out good pin placements and placements that should be avoided?  If so how quickly do those suggestions get lost?

[Forrest Richardson]

I have always done this, but to varying degrees. I will guess that it gets misplaced very quickly. Which is why I have been on a mission to leave an OWNER'S MANUAL behind on recent projects. It is one of these manuals that got me interested in this discussion.

[Joey Smith]

Forrest,

1)  I always try to think about the club the player will be using for his approch.    These kids now a days hit it so far - that the thought that we put into our hole locations is more for our entertainment. 

2)  As for how close to the edge of the green - I will not go over that edge.  I always try to give them a couple of paces before the fall line or the edge of the green.

I also do not try to stick to the old concept of 6 easy or front, 6 medium or middle and 6 hard or back.  I'm trying to get them finished before dark.

Joey

[Forrest Richardson]

Those are good policies. Of course, at some holes we want people to take more time...otherwise we might get a back-up at the next hole.

Pebble Beach No. 6 is a good example — exactly the wrong thing to try and speed No. 6 because it only means more players waiting at No. 7. So, the idea at a hole like No. 6 at Pebble is to try and make it a long event — putting included. This helps pace on an overall basis, even though it makes one hole play longer in terms of time.

[Jim Sweeney]

Forrest, you make a great point. The two situations I constantly see which result in horrible hole locations are 1) the club tournament chairman who lets the responsibility go to his head and demands that he choose the hole locations despite the fact that he probably has no idea what he is doing, and 2) the superintendant who is given the responsibilty for a local or regional championship and apparently is out to defend his course's honor.

Now, before all you superintendants go off the charts about that statement, I'm not necessarily talking about you. My guess is that if you spend your valuable time around this site you are 1) better than the average bear in your profession, and 2) find this site worth your time. But I've seen this situation too many times to think it was all just an accident.

Those who make the effort to learn what makes a good hole location and get lots of experience develop an eye for it- and it is an art in many ways.

One of my personal guidelines is that if a player plays a good shot to a green, and that depends on the length of the shot, the club required, the green surrounds and internal contours, etc., then he should be able to stop his approach putt within a few feet of the hole.

HEre's an example. Imagine a long par four with a bunker fronting the green on the left. The approach will require a mid to long iron. In a multi day event, you will have to consider a hole location in the left front of the green, behind the bunker.

A good second shot could very well end up 40 feet behind the hole. Can the player make a good putt from there and stop the ball within, say, 3 feet? If so, I'm okay with that.

If the hole is a reachable par five with a similar configuration to the above described hole, I may be more aggressive with the hole location if the player has the option to lay up to the right side of the fairway, giving him the ability to circumnavigate the bunker. If he reaches in two and is 40 feet behind the hole, he may face a much more difficult putt- in fact, he may have almost as much opportunity to get down in two with an approach from the fairway as he does with an approach from the green

Just a guideline, as I say- things are rarely very "cut and dried."

But it does take experience. Leaving a "handbook" behind is a great idea, along with a copy of the USGA guidelines.

[Forrest Richardson]

What about a very short (490 yards, let's say) par-5 that has a very difficult green. Might the typical hole location on that green average 2+ putts per player, rather than 2- putts as would be common?

Is there an inalienable right to 2 putts at every green, or may it be intended that a particular green be usually played in more than 2 putts?

[Padraig Dooley]

Does a hole location always need to be accessible? Are there occasions when twenty or thirty feet from the hole is acceptable?

[Joey Smith]

I don't think that every flag stick should be reached so close to give the player a 12 foot  putt.  Some will luck up and happen to get it close - but there is nothing wrong with a 40 footer - especially with that 490 yard par 5 Forrest

[Jeff Doerr]

What about a very short (490 yards, let's say) par-5 that has a very difficult green. Might the typical hole location on that green average 2+ putts per player, rather than 2- putts as would be common?

Is there an inalienable right to 2 putts at every green, or may it be intended that a particular green be usually played in more than 2 putts?

Really two questions here:

1) Should a par 5 hole be designed so that a 3 wood or long iron approach will likely require a heroic two putt for birdie, while a wedge could be held closer to the hole?

2) Would you want to design a hole to hold or stop a long approach (giving eagle a chance), while the same feature puts a big burden on getting a wedge close (bringing bogey or worse into play)?

[Forrest Richardson]

Certainly you would never want to "always" design a hole a particular way. Variety is the spice of golf. But, I do think there is a case for the (par-5) green that rewards a carefully placed third shot as opposed to a bold second shot to the putting floor.

In fact, that happens to be one of the subjects I have recently had with course set-up — and a reason I posed the question in this thread. The essence has to do with intentionally missing or laying-up short of a green. By doing so the golfer is allowed a much more controlled chip or short pitch to a hole location that would ordinarily be prone to three-putts. Why? Because the green intentionally demands a delicate shot as opposed to the longer, and less likely to stop, faster approach from afar.

It seems there is opinion that the bold shot from afar should also have the ability to get close on a higher percentage basis. My feeling is that this longer shot should have a very low (less than 2%) chance at this particular green because the point of the hole is to reward careful and thoughtful play — and to discourage the bold shot in favor of ones placed in prime position to attach a particular hole position.

[TEPaul]

Forrest:

Is the USGA's "competition manual" on their website, and if so where?

What I'd like to know is what exactly in their opinion or definition constitutes a "different hole location"?

[Forrest Richardson]

http://www.usga.org/committees/ChampManual/Appendices/AppndxR1.pdf

[James Bennett]

1) Should a par 5 hole be designed so that a 3 wood or long iron approach will likely require a heroic two putt for birdie, while a wedge could be held closer to the hole?

Sounds like the back nine at Augusta in 2007!  Zac Johnson and his wedge.  Except #15 rarely held the 3 wood or long iron of 'the bombers' - so #15 was tougher than Jeff's description. 

For some, the wedge was too much as well, either short in the drink on #15 or too long!  Jeff's second point I guess.

James B

[JohnV]

The first thing that should be taken into consideration is the ability of the field.  For example, when I setup Pasatiempo for the US Open qualifer in May, I'll pick some tougher hole locations than if I were setting it up for an NCGA Junior Tour event.

Given that I'll have a full field of 90, I probably won't go too crazy as I do want to finish that day.

Forrest's comment about making a hole location tougher to slow down play is interesting.  I hadn't really thought about that before, but it might be a good idea.

I have no problem with a player 3-putting if he doesn't hit the right part of a green, as long as the hole location is not goofy ala the 18th at Olympic in 1988.  I never want a ball rolling backwards after an uphill putt.  I can put up with a downhill putt that might be very difficult to stop at the hole, but I'd want to be possible to stop it with the proper skill.

I have no problem with a hole location that might not be accessible for a lofted shot as long as there might be a way to run a ball up to the side of it.

For those who have played Witch Hollow, I once put the hole for a mini-tour event about 5-6 paces behind the right hand bunker on the 15th hole (a 175 yard par 3).  The green was firm and sloped off the back of the bunker so a shot hit at the hole would probably bounce to the back of the green.  But, a player could play a shot short and right of the hole and have it run up about 15 feet right of the hole.  One player was whining to me about the hole when another walked by and told him how he birdied it by doing just that.

[Forrest Richardson]

John — Bill Yates would be a great resource for you...and he is just a few hundred 7-irons away in Pebble Beach!  Bill has spent a lifetime (almost) studying pace-of-play issues. Pebble Beach is one of his clients, and the source of my short example.

I recommend that you call him...310-529-9061. He will not mind that I have posted his cell phone because he is truly passionate about pace-of-play issues and it is exactly your upcoming qualifying that would mean a lot to him in terms of input.

Frankly, I am amazed at how little people really understand about pace-of-play. If more people engaged Yates and took him to lunch or dinner the world of golf would have more time to post on GCA. 

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