[ed_getka]

I haven't seen the Fazio, but I'll give it one round.

Ed,

It hardly seems fair to diss the Fazio when you admit that you haven't seen it. I've been called out on this site for the same sort of thing - saying I preferred Paa-Ko Ridge to Black Mesa, when I'd never seen Black Mesa in person. But I think playing Barona 3 times as much as Torrey South is pretty reasonable.

Jeez Matt, I thought I was being pretty reasonable to give up a round at Barona to look at the Del Mar course. If I was going to diss a Fazio course I would just not bother to look at it at all, because it was a Fazio. I don't think Fazio's work is bad, from what I've seen. I just happen to think generally that the courses of his that I have seen could have been better. Of what I've seen I would say they are consistently pretty good to very good.

[Matt_Cohn]

Haha, right.   

The Grand is an excellent golf course and I think you'd enjoy it. I think after you you saw it, you'd choose to play it more than Maderas.

[Tim Book]

Unfortunately for most SD golfers Maderas, The Grand and to some extent Barona are becoming 'client' golf.  I just can't justify $200 for Maderas.  Maderas is always in good shape and provides the CC for a day expierence that non-GCA business types enjoy.  I would agree that the 8th is both a card killler and disrupts the flow of the course.  There just isn't enough precious 'So Cal' real estate off the tee.

For me the breakdown would be

Barona 14

Torrey South - 9

Maderas - 5

The 'Grand' - 2

[George Freeman]

what about the Crossings at Carlsbad?  I haven't seen this course mentioned here (granted it is in Carlsbad, and not SD, but then again neither are a couple of the others...

I have not played the course, but did take a quick look at it last time I was in the area, what are people's opinions who have played?

[ed_getka]

Haha, right.   

The Grand is an excellent golf course and I think you'd enjoy it. I think after you you saw it, you'd choose to play it more than Maderas.

Matt,
    Are the green fees similar?
   
     I'm sure I would enjoy the Grand, although I have to admit that any course that calls itself the GRAND is going to have to pretty darn good to overcome my bias against pretentiousness.

[David Stamm]

what about the Crossings at Carlsbad?  I haven't seen this course mentioned here (granted it is in Carlsbad, and not SD, but then again neither are a couple of the others...

I have not played the course, but did take a quick look at it last time I was in the area, what are people's opinions who have played?

George, Hucks probably will disagree with me on this one, but don't bother. It's way overpriced for non residents and sits on one of the most unsuitable pieces of land for golf I've ever seen. I walked most of the course before it opened and spoke with one of Greg Nash's supervisors and was just amazed at the abruptness of the course. In a sense, it's amazing that a course was able to be routed there, but it's just not my cup of tea. BTW, they are really struggling right now with drainage and the course is looking ragged.

[Matt_Cohn]

Haha, right.   

The Grand is an excellent golf course and I think you'd enjoy it. I think after you you saw it, you'd choose to play it more than Maderas.

Matt,
    Are the green fees similar?
   
     I'm sure I would enjoy the Grand, although I have to admit that any course that calls itself the GRAND is going to have to pretty darn good to overcome my bias against pretentiousness.

The Grand is more expensive, plus you have to stay at the resort if you're not a member. As far as the name, you have to understand that "Papa Doug" Manchester, who owns the resort, is somewhat Trumpish in his tastes. The great thing about the course is actually its lack of pretentiousness - it's very low-key and pleasant, and except for the addition of a really shocking waterfall on the 18th hole, the course is actually quite understated.

http://www.dougmanchester.com/
http://thegranddelmar.com

[Jon Spaulding]

I've not played Maderas as of yet so cannot complete the survey.

Ed, I think you might like the GRAND. I played it a few years back and would concur with Matt that it was one of the better places in SD from a quality/pretense valuation. A bit better than the La Costa/Aviara model.

[David Stamm]

 

Ed, I think you might like the GRAND. I played it a few years back and would concur with Matt that it was one of the better places in SD from a quality/pretense valuation. 

Not sure if that's exactly an endorsement or not.

[Tim Leahy]

I used to play Maderas for the afternoon rate of $65 and it was worth it for that price.
 
Torrey South 15 (you can't discount the ocean views and breezes)
Barona  8
Grand  4
Maderas 3

[Matt_Ward]

Can anyone explain to me the fascination some have w LaCosta and Aviara ?

I have never found either of them to be worth playing more than once and
even once is being kind.

I do admit I have not played either in quite a few years so maybe things have changed for the better.

Have to say that San Diego may lay claim to the nation's best year-round weather but it's supply of quality available golf options may have to rank as one of the worst.

[David Stamm]

Can anyone explain to me the fascination some have w LaCosta and Aviara ?

I have never found either of them to be worth playing more than once and
even once is being kind.

I do admit I have not played either in quite a few years so maybe things have changed for the better.

Have to say that San Diego may lay claim to the nation's best year-round weather but it's supply of quality available golf options may have to rank as one of the worst.

I have never found La Costa or Aviara that great myself. They represent the overpriced mediocrity that we are used to here.

The only significant things that have changed have been substantial increases in green fees. And you're right, SD is pretty bad in terms of options. I would rank Orange County right up there as well.

[Matt_Ward]

David, et al:

What makes me even more puzzled is that the greater SD area does have some unique topography that would allow for some unique and fun designs. But, for some strange reason, you get little variation from the stape of mediocre designs that dot the landscape.

I mean how could LaCosta have ever been rated in the top 100 ? Ditto what you find at Pauma Valley when it was rated that high in the USA.

I can remember my first round at Meadows Del Mar (now the Grand Del Mar) and just shaking my head and wondering how they could botch such a piece of property and come up with the layout that's there. I really do like the par-4 4th and the dog-leg 8th hole -- both are very challenging. Nonetheless, there are way too many formulaic TF holes that one has seen countless times beforehand.

[David Stamm]

David, et al:

What makes me even more puzzled is that the greater SD area does have some unique topography that would allow for some unique and fun designs. But, for some strange reason, you get little variation from the stape of mediocre designs that dot the landscape.

I mean how could LaCosta have ever been rated in the top 100 ? Ditto what you find at Pauma Valley when it was rated that high in the USA.

I can remember my first round at Meadows Del Mar (now the Grand Del Mar) and just shaking my head and wondering how they could botch such a piece of property and come up with the layout that's there. I really do like the par-4 4th and the dog-leg 8th hole -- both are very challenging. Nonetheless, there are way too many formulaic TF holes that one has seen countless times beforehand.

Matt,

I don't know enough of Fazio's work to give any credence to this, but the Grand almost seems like a mail it in job of Fazio's. There's just nothing memorable about it.

As far as Pauma Valley, I think it's one of the few gems here in SD and I think represents a solid period of work that RTJ was outting out. It's one of the few places I'd consider joining around here. It's just very remote for most residents to get to.

I agree, SD county has alot of very diverse looks from a topographical standpoint. I just think that the Robinsons, Rainvilles, Cary Bickler etc have dominated the area and the business model here for courses is almost exclusively to sell homes. Period.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Interesting you threw into the mix Orange County. Be curious to see how locals see the issue in terms of different counties throughout SoCal in terms of public available golf to the masses.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Disclaimer: I am friends with Neal Meagher

I find it interesting that there are a number of posts critiquing Maderas (and many of these comments come from people who are only viewing a set of pictures). The main architect of the project speaks up about many of the issues raised and nobody responds to his post (except Ed). It's a wonder why more architects don't post here.

I don't want to be inflammatory. For this site to thrive, however, we should not overlook opportunities to have dialog with somebody who has the nerve to address criticism in a public forum.

[Tim Book]

On Jeff's note I'll add.

Neal, was the model to have Maderas be private from the start?  I only ask that because for the average golfer Maderas is a more difficult course.

I would agree that with the exception of a few obvious quirks Maderas is a solid course, however its price point limits my rounds there.  Sometimes as consumers/players we don't always consider the limitations a architect may be faced with. 

If I remember isn't there a creek to the left of the 8th fairway.  Was there no way to expand the fairway left of the cart path?

Was Miller very involved in the design?

[Jon Spaulding]

 

Ed, I think you might like the GRAND. I played it a few years back and would concur with Matt that it was one of the better places in SD from a quality/pretense valuation. 

Not sure if that's exactly an endorsement or not.

It's neither. Just a state of mind, exactly halfway between depression and elation that one feels when playing a mid-range Fabio.  While relatively expensive, the course was better than Aviara/La Costa....with far less attitude. Was also able to get around in under 4 hours which is an anomaly in that strata of courses.

[Jon Spaulding]

Can anyone explain to me the fascination some have w LaCosta and Aviara ?

I have never found either of them to be worth playing more than once and
even once is being kind.

I do admit I have not played either in quite a few years so maybe things have changed for the better.

Have to say that San Diego may lay claim to the nation's best year-round weather but it's supply of quality available golf options may have to rank as one of the worst.

No one of sound mind would be able to explain the love-fest with these 2 courses. So I'll try with Aviara, which I know better than LC.

Attached to Four Seasons, the first "real" CCFAD in SD county, decent logo, well conditioned, Arnold Palmer, nice clubhouse, convenient location, adjacent to natural lagoon (that you can't see), lots of flowers/fauna, rockwork, water features, some nice trees. I can have seen no changes here in the last 12 years. Of all the positive comments that have ever been told, not a one concerns the layout or design features. It's all about the periphery and that's why we have something that costs $235, is loved by the masses, and generally packed.

I can find little value there from a design standpoint. I did enjoy getting out early and playing consecutive mornings in under 3 hours when staying down there in 2006.

[Jon Spaulding]

David:

Interesting you threw into the mix Orange County. Be curious to see how locals see the issue in terms of different counties throughout SoCal in terms of public available golf to the masses.

Matt, Dave and I have been debating this for some time. We agreed that Orange County and SD were in a dead heat, until Barona opened and delivered the knockout blow. Then Camp Pendleton opened for public play, which was like getting kicked in the gut while down for the count.

[Matt_Ward]

Jon / David, et al:

Thanks.

It amazes me that such superb terrain can produce such low level quality design in so many instances. Even the private stuff isn't that much better - in fact, one can make a good case that the public side is actually a good bit better across the board.

[Matt_Cohn]

Jon / David, et al:

Thanks.

It amazes me that such superb terrain can produce such low level quality design in so many instances. Even the private stuff isn't that much better - in fact, one can make a good case that the public side is actually a good bit better across the board.

San Diego has some good private courses - Ranch Santa Fe, La Jolla, and San Diego if you're into ODG stuff, or Farms, Del Mar and others if you like new stuff. Still, it seems crazy that San Diego doesn't have a consensus Top 100 golf course.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()