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Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« on: March 22, 2008, 01:20:12 AM »
This is a Johnny Miller/Harbottle creation.  The course is very challenging, but I am confused why people seem to think that it is a good course.  Perhaps it is the big box mega-manisons.











































Matt_Cohn

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2008, 02:11:18 AM »
Robert,

I really enjoy this course. Aside from the basics - a really nice setting, excellent conditions, etc. - I think there are a lot of very good holes, a lot of good ones, and only one hole with real issues, the 8th, which is unfortunately really squeezed in there.

I'll admit that this course is probably more enjoyable for a good player - it is a Miller course, after all - but I think you're a good player so I'm surprised you don't like it.

Really, I'm not sure why somebody would think this *isn't* a good course.

PS, I first played it before most of the big houses were built, so that's not what's fooling me!

Walt_Cutshall

Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 09:02:49 AM »
Maderas, no?

I thought it was a lot of fun to play. It had a couple of goofy features, but I was impressed overall. You faced a lot of different challenges off the tee and on the approaches, and the holes were quite varied.

I don't recall the large homes being there when I played it.

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 09:07:59 AM »
looks like you would lose a dozen golf balls.

i like the solar panels in one of the earlier pics.

Brad Klein

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2008, 10:05:01 AM »
RMD,

I'm dizzy. That's mighty impressive camera work, how you managed to shake the camera like that and create all of that superfluous motion in the ground while keeping everything in focus.

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 10:15:00 AM »
Looks....eh. The mounding and the rockwork are offensive. Has a Redhawk look to it.

I would likely take the $170  ??? they want during the week, drive over to Pauma, and have a good time.

You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Kalen Braley

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2008, 10:47:19 AM »
Robert,

I've seen the various course reviews you have posted over the last few years on GCA.com.  And lets just say you definitly get around and have played a lot of great courses.  Well once you eat meal after meal of steak, lobster, etc, etc...a good chicken dinner might seem less than satisfying.

But beleive me, this course looks alot more interesting than your average doak scale 2 that the average joe plays.  In dinner terms that chicken dinner is mighty fine when you are used to eating Top Ramen and Mac N' Cheese.

ed_getka

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 11:06:45 AM »
We had a big group out at Maderas years ago as a warm-up before the first Kings Putter. The land was a little tight and some holes ended up getting shoehorned in due to land constraints. I don't remember the details of holes after this long. My favorite part of the course was the greens which I felt had some good movement. Neal Meagher had a large part to play in the design of this course.
   If the asking price is $170 these days that is too much. I think we played it for around $90 which seemed a little pricey for what was there. At the time I thought it would have been reasonable to charge $70 for an enjoyable round. As Matt pointed out there are some very good holes there. Some are quite demanding due to the narrowness of some holes. There was one really goofy hole out there, but I don't remember what the problem was with it. I seem to vaguely remember an awkward turning point or something where it felt impossible to get your ball in play.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2008, 11:08:57 AM »
I didn't know they had terrain like this in South Dakota.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2008, 12:18:42 PM »

I didn't realize Harbottle was involved, I thought it was a Miller/Graves course. I know Neal used to work for Graves.

I do believe it was the 8th hole that was widely panned by the group that Ed refers to. I too thought there was some very interesting greens there. Overall I thought it was a good course, but I wouldn't play it over the Barona.


Pete Lavallee

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2008, 01:05:12 PM »
Craig is right it's a Robert Muir Graves design. Neal Meragher should get the credit for the greens; they are really well done. The site is very hilly and although you expect the downhill holes to be fun the uphill holes are well done in my opinon. The course is a litte too concave for my taste; but when you can afford the $1MM lot and put the minimum $5MM home on it you probably are too busy to practice golf and need a little help to keep the ball in play. Troon Golf manages the place and refuses to discount, feeling it would cheapen the experience. They've been waiting for enough homeowners to join so they can go private, 6 year is a long time for the few members they have to share their course with the unwashed.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

David Stamm

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2008, 01:32:32 PM »
Craig is right it's a Robert Muir Graves design. Neal Meragher should get the credit for the greens; they are really well done. The site is very hilly and although you expect the downhill holes to be fun the uphill holes are well done in my opinon. The course is a litte too concave for my taste; but when you can afford the $1MM lot and put the minimum $5MM home on it you probably are too busy to practice golf and need a little help to keep the ball in play. Troon Golf manages the place and refuses to discount, feeling it would cheapen the experience. They've been waiting for enough homeowners to join so they can go private, 6 year is a long time for the few members they have to share their course with the unwashed.


From what I understand, Pete, the project to make Maderas private fell flat on it's face. I think there is little chance of it ever happening. I have to agree with some of the arlier comments, some of the holes are really shoehorned in. I did enjoy some of the holes there, but the price to play these days is just crazy. Ed's right, $70 would be about right. But as long as Troon is steering the ship the price will stay where it is. There isn't many high-end member for a day experiences in SD so I can't blame them really.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2008, 02:03:30 AM »
It is true that I often dine on Steak and Lobster, but my home SD course is considered Tyson chicken--San Luis Rey Downs--green fees @ $35.00  I included several pictures of the 8th because it is one of the worst par 5"s I've ever palyed in my life.  What makes this hole worse is that there is over 75 yards behind the tee that would have eliminated the shoed in problem around the green complex.   Doesn't anyone have any problems with the Ted Robinson imitation lakes?  I should love the 9th--I've gone 3, 3, 2 the past three rounds.  I agree that the greens posses very good character.  The par 3's are very strong.  The 6th is a top notch almost/drivable  short hole.  Perhaps if it were a $35 course it would be considered superb.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2008, 03:31:20 AM »
It is true that I often dine on Steak and Lobster,

...Nice!

but my home SD course is considered Tyson chicken--San Luis Rey Downs--green fees @ $35.00

I agree that $200 is kind of crazy, but that's independent from whether it's a good course or not

I included several pictures of the 8th because it is one of the worst par 5"s I've ever palyed in my life.  What makes this hole worse is that there is over 75 yards behind the tee that would have eliminated the shoed in problem around the green complex.   Doesn't anyone have any problems with the Ted Robinson imitation lakes?

Not sure if I'd go that far, but it's way below the quality of the other holes and other par-5's on the course. I don't mind the lakes. They are several steps above a Robinson lake. Just very different

I should love the 9th--I've gone 3, 3, 2 the past three rounds.  I agree that the greens posses very good character.  The par 3's are very strong.  The 6th is a top notch almost/drivable  short hole.  Perhaps if it were a $35 course it would be considered superb.

To me the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th are all very good holes, and none of the others are less than OK, aside from the 8th.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 03:38:17 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Jeff Doerr

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2008, 11:30:31 AM »
I thought it had a sense of Muir Graves. Looking at the images I kept seeing parts of La Purisma and Brighton Crest. I think a few features are a bit over done, but the shot values look good for the most part and the greens (as mentioned before) look very well done.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Steve Lang

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2008, 11:35:32 AM »
 8)

its clearly due to the mowing patterns..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2008, 12:11:07 PM »
I'll have to look at the photos again.  All I saw the first time through was those eyepopping SoCal McMansions. 

I really was impressed by the solar panels, makes for nice ambience.

Matt_Ward

Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2008, 12:19:55 PM »
Gents:

The fee situation is likely the "California effect." This means that if such a course were located elsewhere the general playing fees wold likely be 20-25% less.

I've played a good share of SD courses over the years and simply shake my head at how operators of facilities can charge what they do and more importantly that users of these facilities willingly pay these inane amounts at what is normally a very small smattering of layouts worthy of such a payout of dollars from one's pocket.

Troon North is not willing (smartly I might say) to discount their brand name because it would tend to put pressure on then to do likewise with other properties.

P.S. I have not played the course but I like what I see from a few of the photos. For those who have played it how you would split 30 rounds of golf between the following courses (you must provide at least two rounds at any of the examples I provide).

Torrey Pines / South = ?

Barona Creek = ?

Maderas = ?

The former Meadows Del Mar = ?

Norbert P

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2008, 12:28:06 PM »
 Do I see curbing off to the left of a green complex? (The picture with the mole hill rock in it and the one thereafter.)  Seems that could have been aleviated by shortening the hole - reeling back the green.
  The one hole going down the hill in a dogleg fashion looks fun.
  Certainly is a profusion of California Poppies in the hills.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

David Stamm

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2008, 01:25:55 PM »
Gents:

The fee situation is likely the "California effect." This means that if such a course were located elsewhere the general playing fees wold likely be 20-25% less.

Unfortunately, this is spot on, Matt. As Californian's we suffer from this on a few fronts. The trade off for living in such a wonderful climate.

I've played a good share of SD courses over the years and simply shake my head at how operators of facilities can charge what they do and more importantly that users of these facilities willingly pay these inane amounts at what is normally a very small smattering of layouts worthy of such a payout of dollars from one's pocket.

I shake my head at the operators as well, but even more at the repeat customers that keep "eating this up" without demanding more for their money. Operators will only change the product when forced to do so, as you well know.

 

P.S. I have not played the course but I like what I see from a few of the photos. For those who have played it how you would split 30 rounds of golf between the following courses (you must provide at least two rounds at any of the examples I provide).

Torrey Pines / South =6

Barona Creek = 20

Maderas = 2

The former Meadows Del Mar = 2
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Neal_Meagher

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2008, 02:26:28 PM »
This is the great thing about GolfClubAtlas.com, and I've said it ever since I discovered this site in 2000, that it allows us architect-types to really get into the heads of those who play (and review) our courses.  Like a chef who is looking to sharpen his menu, I think much can be gleaned from understanding what others see and incorporating those ideas into future works, or dishes, both being at the mercy of the reviewer.  However, there are a few tidbits here that beg for clarification and I am more than happy to fulfill that role.  If the shoe were on the other foot, I would be curious about some of these things myself.

I don't know where the John Harbottle connection came from, maybe because he has indeed done multiple co-designs with Johnny Miller, but not here.  And as much as I respect the esteemed Dr. Klein and his well-deserved role in the game as a historian, writer and gadfly, his opinion of the heaving ground undulations is, in my view, not exactly accurate.  Yes, there is movement but much of that derives from this being a substandard site (not a cop-out but a fact) which meant that on at least a couple of the holes it was necessary to manufacture some plateaus to at least help the ball come to rest at some point.  Also, when one is actually standing in the midst of this heaving Parton-esque landscape, I don't feel that these forms feel overdone in general, but I will admit that there are a few places where things could have been softer.

As for the par 5 8th hole, it is a rotten and completely despicable excuse of a golf hole, one needing the swift attention of a cruise missile or, at the very least, a cadre of D-8 dozers.  If it feels shoehorned that is because it absolutely was.  The suggestion this could have been alleviated by pushing the tee back 75 yards seems plausible, except for the fact that if that were done, the 9th green located just to the right of the current tee would be in great danger.  Simply put, this should have been a par 4 hole but this owner, not being golf savvy, could not have a par 71, simply wouldn't consider it.  Also, to lose yardage was not an option to this individual either so we did what we could.  And what you see to the left of the green is not a cart path curb but the top of a stone embankment that was artificially built up to support the green.  The cart path is about 12' below that "curb".  Due to oak tree and wetland regulations, the green couldn't be moved to the left either, thus the disaster that is this hole.

As for the discussion of the lakes and their "Robinsonesque" appearance, the reality is that any golf course in semi-desert San Diego County must be irrigated and this was the logical place to put the irrigation lake.  It's just that simple.

If it were to be done over again, yes, in hindsight I would push to do many things differently design-wise.  We certainly had many minds to tap into when one considers that the following comprised the design team and some or all were at multiple site visits:  Robert Muir Graves/Damian Pascuzzo/yours truly; Johnny Miller/Fred Bliss; The Owner/his golf development specialist, and then at the end, the brain trust from Troon.  So, with 6 or so involved in decision-making things can lose focus.  This is not a recipe for outstanding results I would be the very first to admit. 

Also, with this being such a high-budget project there certainly could be the budget available to maintain the beautiful and rugged bunkers so in vogue now.  I would love to see what one of our photo-shop experts out there can do with one of these images by superimposing a Doak/Hanse/Coore bunkering scheme over the cape and bay style bunkers that were built. 

Perhaps someday the course can be rethought by mellowing out a few of the sharper contours, creating a more naturalistic bunkering scheme and really rethinking the 8th hole.  But, to me, the important thing is to know that folks out there are thinking about and talking about Maderas which means that it is worthy, on some level, of these discussions. 
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2008, 10:54:56 PM »
Gents:

The fee situation is likely the "California effect." This means that if such a course were located elsewhere the general playing fees wold likely be 20-25% less.

I've played a good share of SD courses over the years and simply shake my head at how operators of facilities can charge what they do and more importantly that users of these facilities willingly pay these inane amounts at what is normally a very small smattering of layouts worthy of such a payout of dollars from one's pocket.

Troon North is not willing (smartly I might say) to discount their brand name because it would tend to put pressure on then to do likewise with other properties.

P.S. I have not played the course but I like what I see from a few of the photos. For those who have played it how you would split 30 rounds of golf between the following courses (you must provide at least two rounds at any of the examples I provide).

Torrey Pines / South = 4

Barona Creek = 14

Maderas = 6

The former Meadows Del Mar = 6

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2008, 11:37:46 PM »
FYI, a college golfer friend in San Diego said:

10 at tp south
10 at barona
6 at the grand
4 at maderas

I guess it's possible for kind and decent people to differ in opinion on golf course architecture.

ed_getka

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2008, 01:16:25 AM »
Neal,
   Nice to see you chiming in. What projects are you involved with that you can let us know about?

Matt,
   I haven't seen the Fazio, but I'll give it one round, Barona gets 20, Torrey gets 6 (for when I feel like getting by butt kicked), and Maderas 3 (unless the Fazio is cheaper, then I would most likely reverse the Maderas/Del Mar ratio. I would certainly include at least one round at Coronado in any rotation of 30 plays in SD area.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Why is this SD course considered pretty good?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2008, 01:22:57 AM »
I haven't seen the Fazio, but I'll give it one round.

Ed,

It hardly seems fair to diss the Fazio when you admit that you haven't seen it. I've been called out on this site for the same sort of thing - saying I preferred Paa-Ko Ridge to Black Mesa, when I'd never seen Black Mesa in person. But I think playing Barona 3 times as much as Torrey South is pretty reasonable.

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