Why not the Country Club of York

[JNagle]

This past week I was at the Country Club of York working with the Supt. in preparation for a
bunker project this fall.  While there I spent some time painting out the proposed green expansions.  In doing so I spent a great deal of time walking and musing over the greens at York.  Quite simply, they are pure genius.  The internall rolls, ridges, swales, bumps and berms are expertally placed.   The proportion of the greens relative to elevation and contour and perfect.  There is great variety in the greens.  Many have the aforementioned features and others are simple in shape, contour and slope.  This can be confusing as you might find yourself looking for internal slope and roll when it does not exist.  The routing of the course is masterful (sorry Flynn guys, Ross' routing is much better) with the exception of the 11th hole.  The 11th slopes HARD left to right.

Thinking of this made me wonder why this place is not on anyones radar.  Is it too far removed (who travels to York?) or is it the opposite; it is too close to many great course (i.e. courses in Philly, Lancaster and Allentown).  The par 3's are what you would expect from Ross, strong.  The par 5's may be the weakest part of the course.

[TEPaul]

Jim (are you Nagle or Wagner today?):

I get the feeling it has nothing to do with York as a golf course just that for whatever reasons most on this website just aren't too familiar with the course.

Personally, I love the place and the primary reason for it is I had some wonderful times there in tournament play. It's hard to define really but something about that golf course just kept you engaged right through the round for whatever reasons. I may not be able to remember some of the little details on every hole and green but that is one of those rare courses where I remember every hole and where it is in the round. Nothing about the holes of that course just sort of blended into similarity as it does on many other golf courses.

So, I don't know why it doesn't get more respect but what is this slap at Flynn for? How can you be sure if he did York GC the golf course might not be one of the most respected around? 

Don't you think that the pugnacious, electric William Flynn could've architecturally out-performed that avuncular old fuddy-duddy Donald Ross any day?

[JESII]

The par 5's may be the weakest part of the course.

but, when viewed as a must 4, the par 5's become very interesting...#3 and #15 are very, very good two shot holes in my opinion.

I really like the course, but have only played there in two tournament 15 or so years apart...2005 PA Mid-Am was the second one.

I do not have a clear memory of the problems with #11...so, just out of curiosity, could the tee be moved a bit further right to compensate the slope?

[TEPaul]

Jim:

Of that group of classic "Rinpoche" architects don't you think Donald Ross has a deserved reputation for being a tad weak on par 5 holes compared to the other two types of par holes?

I'd say of the American ODGs Tillinghast was probably the strongest of them all on the par 5 hole. Some of his apparently unique ideas on the par 5 concept was pretty interesting albeit perhaps a little one dimensional (in that he wrote that they seemingly shouldn't be designed to do much to accommodate a second shot in two).

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jim,

I've advocated studying and comparing the Flynn and Ross routings at York for some time.

I believe there's an old thread I started within the last year that's somewhere on the back pages.

[wsmorrison]

The routing of the course is masterful (sorry Flynn guys, Ross' routing is much better) with the exception of the 11th hole.  The 11th slopes HARD left to right.

I'd sure like to know why you feel that way, Jim.  I'm ready for some insight.  I was surprised to see how different Flynn's routing was than Ross's after studying the two plans.  I'm not an expert on routing.  In fact, none of us armchair architects on the site are capable of really understanding routing permutations for comparison or the ability to laud the achieved potential of a particular site.  However, the Flynn routing seemingly would have created a much more difficult test of golf and utilized some severe landforms in brilliant ways where Ross avoided them altogether.  Ross's routing seemed systematic in the way it took on the topographic movement where Flynn's was less bound by convention, especially where the routings were offset 90 degrees from one another.  I haven't looked at the drawings or been on the course for some time, but I thought Flynn's use of angles and offsets were better as well.  What specifics did you like about Ross that was MUCH better?

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I've advocated studying and comparing the Flynn and Ross routings at York for some time.

I believe there's an old thread I started within the last year that's somewhere on the back pages.

Pat,

I sent you the plans by both architects.  What are your thoughts on the significant differences?  Let's let this thread be the forum to take up the topic once again.  I hope Bob Crosby and Craig Disher weigh in as well.

[JNagle]

TEPaul -

No slap at Flynn intended.  Yes, Ross was a tad weaker than most with the 5 par's.  Not all but he was much better at the 3's followed by 4's before the 5's.  The routing helps me remember the course.  There are only two true parallel holes there, 1 and 10.  Others are side by side but the tees play from different angles.  That always helps when recalling holes.  Parallel holes with towering trees start to become familiar.

IMHO Tillie was better at the 5's, followed by Flynn and his 4's and Ross and the 3's.  Ross almost always seemed to have a set of good 3's on his courses.

Jim NAGLE

[JNagle]

Wayne -

Dramatic use of the land, yes!  Practical, not sure!  Holes 13 -16 are routed over very difficult terrain.  The existing slopes are very steep.  The use of the stream is typical of Flynn (good thing), however the direction of the slopes relative to the sun (north facing), deep valleys, low lying greens and side slopes would have made for a VERY difficult group of holes.   The Good Walk would have been spoiled.  I love Flynn's work, his is by far my favorite.    The routing at York would not have been as good.  The location of the 10th green and 11th tees is also situated in a difficult.  It appears to me many of the holes when routed with the predominant slope as he planned would have made for fairways that were very difficult to hold and would have been shortened by the amount of roll gained.  The memorability of the Ross course leads me to think he did a great job routing the course and was not formulaic in his approach.  We will be out there this Fall.  Maybe if cleared by the Club we could have a little fun with this and walk the Flynn routing.  It is rare to have an instance where two of the best routed the same course and the plans exist.

[wsmorrison]

At the risk of being completely dismissed as a Flynn homer:

I haven't seen nearly the number of Ross courses as you, Jim.  But in my experience, I have yet to see an American architect that had a consistently better selection of par 3s on individual courses and throughout his portfolio than Flynn.  Maybe the bunkering (multiple on one side below green level and a single on the other side at green level) was systematic on some courses, particularly Rolling Green, but I think he must be considered among the greats at designing a set of par 3s for a course.   As for par 4s, Flynn is up there with the very best as well.  While not at the very top of the pyramid, Flynn's par 5s are outstanding.  One of my favorite par 5s of all is the 3rd at Philadelphia Country Club.  Flynn, perhaps due to the Merion influence, at times had only two par 5s on a course, especially some of his championship courses.  Rolling Green is an exception with the 18th as a particularly poor par 5 for better players, especially situated at the end of the round.  It should be a par 4.  I'm sure Mike "Knucklehead" Malone will get on me about that again.  The two par 5s at Shinnecock Hills and Huntingdon Valley are excellent.  Huntingdon Valley and Shinnecock Hills in particularly are strong in the par 3s and par 4s.   

I don't know Tillinghast well enough either, but what I have sampled leads me to believe that length and overtly dictated direction were the most important factors in the strength of his par 5s rather than angles, subtlety and temptation in his designs.  I could easily be wrong though.

Colt may have been as good or better at par 3s, though I haven't played enough of his courses to determine.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Wayno,

I'm out of town and don't have access to those drawings.

I'll have to address your question when I get home.

The fact that Flynn's routing was the routing of choice could lead one to conclude that his routing was superior.

[wsmorrison]

The fact that Flynn's routing was the routing of choice could lead one to conclude that his routing was superior.

You mean Ross's routing, since that was the one chosen.  I think those  Yorkers were too busy making barbells to spend a lot of time deciding whether to select Ross or Flynn.  Because their rivals at Lancaster CC selected Flynn, there wasn't much of a chance that York would select him.  And given that Flynn's plan was much harder, the choice isn't hard to understand 

Excellent commentary, Jim.  I'd like to study that some more.  Does it make sense to post the Flynn and Ross routings here?  They'd probably be too small for everyone to see the topo lines and figure things out.  I will if you think it will lead to a good discussion.

[JNagle]

Wayne -

I will not disagree on the greatness of Flynn as a router and designer.  His designs are my favorite.  I spent yesterday becoming more and more enamored with RG.  I knew I would get myself in trouble by only mentioning Ross, Flynn and Tillie.  However, they were the three being discussed.  I was wanting to state when you look at the works of each of those three architects there were strengths and some weaknesses.  The strength of each is how I listed them.  They all have merits and great examples of 3's, 4's and 5's within thier works.  

Not sure it posting the photos is worth it unless people know the topography.  I would have to see if the Club would mind posting a plan.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Wayno,

I'm out of town and don't have access to those drawings.

I'll have to address your question when I get home.

The fact that Ross's routing was the routing of choice could lead one to conclude that his routing was superior.

[wsmorrison]

Sorry to put you on the spot, Jim.  I know you have a very high regard for Flynn and realize you feel very strongly about the other greats and not only that, but have studied them all very carefully.   Your remarks on relative strengths and weaknesses is quite good. 

I hope we can get together sometime to discuss in person.  I know one course that we haven't played or walked much of together.  I hope you can make it back to that other course in Delaware County sometime 

[Craig Disher]

A quick comment. The real difference between the routings are seen in Flynn's holes 5-7 and 13-16. The others generally follow the same topography that Ross used and in some cases the same corridors - 9 and 18, e.g. The Flynn holes I mentioned run almost at right angles to Ross's and traverse the most difficult topography, especially 13-16. I assume Flynn's routing would have been more expensive to construct (tree removal and grading?) and as Jim pointed out, some of the fairways presented problems. Flynn's course was also more difficult; the combination of that and the cost may have swayed the club to go with Ross's plan.

Has anyone from the club looked in the minutes to see if there was a discussion on which plan to select? Wayne, do you know if the minutes exist from that time?

[wsmorrison]

Craig,

Nice analysis and good point about the club minutes.  Maybe Jim and Ron could help us delve into the club's records to see if there's any discussion about the selection process. 

I'd also add that the starting and finishing point was set for both Flynn and Ross.  This was dictated by the use of existing entry roads and the farmhouse used as the clubhouse. 

I wonder if the fairways proposed by Flynn were fine for the grass heights that were typical back in the early 1920s.  I suppose they would have held a wider variety of shots as opposed to the grasses and grass heights used today.

When are you and Bobsy Crosby going to finish the chapter?  The presses are stopped.  Tom may get to editing that chapter in the next couple of years 

[Sean_A]

Craig,

Nice analysis and good point about the club minutes.  Maybe Jim and Ron could help us delve into the club's records to see if there's any discussion about the selection process. 

I'd also add that the starting and finishing point was set for both Flynn and Ross.  This was dictated by the use of existing entry roads and the farmhouse used as the clubhouse. 

I wonder if the fairways proposed by Flynn were fine for the grass heights that were typical back in the early 1920s.  I suppose they would have held a wider variety of shots as opposed to the grasses and grass heights used today.

When are you and Bobsy Crosby going to finish the chapter?  The presses are stopped.  Tom may get to editing that chapter in the next couple of years 

Wayne

I was once told that heights and grasses used back in the day are pretty much a wash with modern watering - courses probably play the same excluding extreme conditions.  This sounded reasonable to me, but I don't have any evidence that this is the case on one course let alone as a general trend. 

A question about the would be troublesome Flynn holes at York.  Were any of these holes reverse doglegs?

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

Flynn's 1925 plan for the Country Club of York.  Any comments on the routing before we take a look at the Ross plan?



Sean,

In the case of holes 13-16 mentioned by Jim, two of the holes were fairly level par 3s that avoided most of the difficult and steep terrain surrounding them.   The par 3 13th is level from tee to green and the walk, if along the ridge above the stream would have avoided a steep downhill then uphill walk.  All the architect had to do was have a bridge near the green and there would have been little elevation change at all.  The bunkerless hole 14 was  uphill about 80' with a slight dogleg to the right.  It did not have a reverse cant.  The landing area would have been blind, being 40 feet above the tee.  That design would have required a tough climb. The par 3 15th was slightly uphill with a natural cant from left to right.  The 16th was fairly straight away with a right to left cant of the fairway.  The 10th green had a steep falloff to the right, in the direction of the slight turn of the hole.  The 11th tee was situated on a steep bank and the first part of the fairway had a steep right to left cant requiring a fade into the fairway less the golfer end up in the right rough with a downhill approach shot to a green fronted by a bunker in the line of play.


As for holes 5-7 mentioned by Craig, the 5th hole was decidedly downhill with distance control off the tee a requisite.  The strong uphill par 3 6th is reminiscent of the later design for the 15th at Philadelphia Country Club, though not so well bunkered.  There was a large opening to the green allowing plenty of room to run the ball on.  The 7th hole had a decided left to right cant which would require shaping a shot to hold the fairway.

[Dan Herrmann]

Here's the history page from the club:  http://www.ccyork.org/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=248929&ssid=105916&vnf=1

[Sean_A]

Flynn's 1925 plan for the Country Club of York.  Any comments on the routing before we take a look at the Ross plan?



Sean,

In the case of holes 13-16 mentioned by Jim, two of the holes were fairly level par 3s that avoided most of the difficult and steep terrain surrounding them.   The par 3 13th is level from tee to green and the walk, if along the ridge above the stream would have avoided a steep downhill then uphill walk.  All the architect had to do was have a bridge near the green and there would have been little elevation change at all.  The bunkerless hole 14 was  uphill about 80' with a slight dogleg to the right.  It did not have a reverse cant.  The landing area would have been blind, being 40 feet above the tee.  That design would have required a tough climb. The par 3 15th was slightly uphill with a natural cant from left to right.  The 16th was fairly straight away with a right to left cant of the fairway.  The 10th green had a steep falloff to the right, in the direction of the slight turn of the hole.  The 11th tee was situated on a steep bank and the first part of the fairway had a steep right to left cant requiring a fade into the fairway less the golfer end up in the right rough with a downhill approach shot to a green fronted by a bunker in the line of play.


As for holes 5-7 mentioned by Craig, the 5th hole was decidedly downhill with distance control off the tee a requisite.  The strong uphill par 3 6th is reminiscent of the later design for the 15th at Philadelphia Country Club, though not so well bunkered.  There was a large opening to the green allowing plenty of room to run the ball on.  The 7th hole had a decided left to right cant which would require shaping a shot to hold the fairway.

Wayne

Thanks.  It looks to be an interesting routing which effectively skirts the harshest parts of the property though there still looks to be some severe fairways and a pretty tough walking course - not old man architecture!  #8 looks a bit wild.  The fairway seems quite narrow for the situation - same with #11.  What was the proposed yardage for #s 12 & 16?   

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

12 was 400 yards and 16 was 335 yards.  8 and 18 look they both would have been pretty wild.

[Dan Herrmann]

If I read the map correctly, 14 looks to be a fairway high on the sides with a low "tube" running down the center of the fairway.    Did Flynn use this technique elsewhere?

And 12 looks like it would have been a pretty cool drop shot.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Craig Disher,

Finding Board minutes on the subject would be interesting.

Can you overlay the two plans in two different colors on the topo ?

Thanks

[wsmorrison]

Lil' Pat,

Craig overlaid the Ross stick routing (blue) over the Flynn plan since that is the only one with topo lines.  I wish some of the architects on board would analyze the routing differences for us, that would be one of the best learning experiences this board has ever had via this site.