News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Michael_Stachowicz

Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2008, 10:17:43 AM »
Having grown up in Massachusetts I certainly agree with all the great comments about how Mr. Cornish has done more than anyone to make golf affordable in this area.  He was fair with his pricing and creative when it came to payments.  It has only been within the last 10 to 20 years that this area got a Jones course or a Fazio course (I believe I am correct here) which shows how frugal we can be here when it comes to architect fees.

I believe that in another 20 years we will be looking at Cornish courses as being very unique, full of character...almost a retro look.  His pure designs that are left should be preserved as they will be unique and sought out in the future.  His designs really speak to the time period and the art movements of the 60's and 70's unlike any other architect of his time.  Here is a picture he did for a hole at Dedham which is not even close to the Raynor/Ross character of the rest of the course (luckily for the Raynorphiles, this wasn't done).



For that, I agree with Mr. Doak...he seemed to really not give any nod to the ODGs or worry about continuity.  But this picture on its own shows great character that would be a shame if it got lost from architecture forever...who else builds bunkers like that, suspended in the air?  Not an ideal for the guys on this forum, but it is harder and harder to find defining character in golf courses. and this has it.

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2008, 01:46:10 PM »
Thanks for all who contributed.  Michael, I think the bunkering in the sketch looks alot like Smyers, athough his would probably be smaller and more clustered.  If the work had been done at Dedham, the Raynorites would be all over it for sure.  I am surprized no one has commented on Cornish's use of trees in the middle of fairways.  That one on #18 at Stow Acres North still drives me crazy just thinking about it.
HP

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2008, 02:49:29 PM »
It's very ironic that the man who brought renewed attention to the master architects of the past, through The Architects of Golf in particular, really paid no mind to the philosophies and style of those great men when renovating their original courses.

Strange.
jeffmingay.com

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2008, 05:10:57 PM »
Mr. Cornish is very alive and very well. I mailed him a question last week and he wrote me back immediately with an answer.

Anthony



Ray Richard

Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2008, 05:12:05 PM »
The mindset of the late 1960's and 1970's was to install "new and improved golf features" on the great golf courses. RTJ installed landing strip tees and flashed up bunkers because the members and USGA wanted it that way Some courses didn't get modernized-George Wright in Boston comes to mind-because the city of Boston was too dysfunctional to get it done. Cornish did a renovation of the fabled Vardon bunker at TCC for the 1963 Open, and this feature influenced the outcome, but nobody blamed Cornish.

I spent many hours in a crowded Stockbridge classroom listening to Cornish talk about the masters of golf like Ross and Tilly and he admired them all. Perhaps we can blame the club presidents and green chairman who worshipped modernism.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2008, 10:55:26 PM »
Michael — What is "his time"...are you even aware of the decades he has lived and worked? Are you even aware of the men he knew, worked with and learned from?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2008, 01:53:52 PM »
A lot of Mr. Cornish's style was grounded in the practical.  Many of his sites were rocky in nature, some with ledge rock close underneath, so he pretty much decided early on that he would build every feature out of fill, to avoid the rocks (because he didn't have the budget to deal with them) and to make the drainage work easy.  That is the reason for his bunkers being "suspended in the air."

He took that style wherever it led him, even on renovations of older courses where the features were built into the ground.

Michael_Stachowicz

Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2008, 10:18:13 AM »
Michael — What is "his time"...are you even aware of the decades he has lived and worked? Are you even aware of the men he knew, worked with and learned from?

I am very aware of his longevity and his connection to the past greats.  All I was saying is I think his design style, although unchanged throughout his career (as far as I can tell), seemed to best reflect that 60's and 70's time period...maybe more 60's than anything.  Think of the house on the Brady Bunch, modern then, retro now.

I'd say that Jones, Nicklaus, and Fazio have some of the best designs that scream 1980's even though some are done before and after that decade.  The 80's was a period of excess and status and the designs reflect that.

Now in this period we are getting back to nature which coincides with the heightened awareness of the environment that has been happening for the past 10  years.  And golf designs are reflecting that.  Not all designs, but the ones that are grabbing the headlines.

I wish I was more articulate about the art world and movements through our history and how they bled over into GCA, but I am not.  I am at least aware that movements in design whether it be courses, houses, or dresses, they get their cues from society.

I can't quite figure out Mr. Richardson why you sound so offended, but hopefully I have cleared it up.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2008, 11:11:53 AM »
Michael S. .......... Michael P. ............ ?

Firstly, I believe Michael P. may have edited his words slightly, but I am not sure. I recall responding to the use of the term, "his time", taking some exception to a lifetime that has extended well beyond most, and has covered several facets of golf design and construction—again—well beyond most. It seems, in the case of Mr. Cornish, to casually use "his time" to describe his life in golf and golf design, is too casual and demeaning.

I do not believe I was responding to you, Michael S., so please ignore my use of "Michael". If i was in error reading "his time" within the posts, that is my fault....but I do recall that term being among the posts here, even though it appears gone at this juncture.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2008, 01:01:47 PM »
Forrest,
The suggestion that my original thread or any subsequent post of mine has been edited in ANY way is false.  Please help me to understand your preoccupation with this “his time” stuff that you, in error, thought I wrote. In my original thread I mentioned that Mr. Cornish has been credited with between 150 and 200 designs, as well as countless renovations of existing designs.  Nearly every post has shown nothing but deference and admiration for Mr. Cornish and I do not see how one could read them and find anything demeaning or inappropriate.  I simply sought to engage the DG in a discussion of his golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 06:01:48 PM by Michael Powers »
HP

Mike Sweeney

Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2008, 07:06:35 PM »
http://www.newenglandgolfguide.com/featured2.html

Here is a good review of Farm Neck, probably the best and certainly the prettiest Cornish course that I have played. In general his greens and detailing are pretty simple, but that may be a function of budget versus ability.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2008, 07:12:12 PM »
Forrest,
The suggestion that my original thread or any subsequent post of mine has been edited in ANY way is false.  Please help me to understand your preoccupation with this “his time” stuff that you, in error, thought I wrote. In my original thread I mentioned that Mr. Cornish has been credited with between 150 and 200 designs, as well as countless renovations of existing designs.  Nearly every post has shown nothing but deference and admiration for Mr. Cornish and I do not see how one could read them and find anything demeaning or inappropriate.  I simply sought to engage the DG in a discussion of his golf course architecture.


Michael

Forrest got his Michaels mixed up.  Michael S did indeed refer to 'his time' - "His designs really speak to the time period and the art movements of the 60's and 70's unlike any other architect of his time."

Regarding Cornish's work - here in W. MA we see it everywhere and it's hard to understand how he got so much work, other that, apparently, for a long time he was the only guy out there willing to work for the contracts being offered by local municipalities and not so well off clubs. Which IS cool. Chicoppe CC, for instance is by no stretch of the imagination a good course, but it is always busy, meaning the community needed a course, and I know many folk who love to play there (great pro shop for bargains, BTW). Hickory Ridge, near Amherst, generally highly rated by locals (it's the poshest club around those parts), is a long often waterlogged trudge, but it has some great perplexing greens...


« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 07:22:29 PM by Lloyd_Cole »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2008, 08:03:25 PM »
My hope was to get some idea of what "his time" was getting at. To me it sounded as if Mr. Cornish and his life somehow defined a particular period of time — when the reality is that he has transcended a few periods in golf architecture!

I understand from reading subsequent posts, Michael, that you realize this. When I couldn't locate the words I thought I had read, I figured I was crazy or that you edited them. Now I am set straight.

Important is the fact that Mr. Cornish is a genuine and gracious individual with a tremendous love for golf and the people who are interested in designing courses. As a very young student interested in the game he took the time to write back to me and take an interest in my studies. I have kept all of his letters throughout the years and appreciate the time he took to write each one.




— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2008, 02:40:00 AM »
I still find it amazing that for all his respect for golf architecture history he never came close to embodying those principles in his (re)design work. The first thing restorationists do in New England is take out all the work he did -- something that started when Rees Jones prepared The Country Club for the 1988 U.S. Open

Michael_Stachowicz

Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2008, 07:27:21 AM »
Mr. Richardson, it was I that said "his time", but it sounds like we have straightened that out.  This thread gives me warm fuzzy feelings as he his getting the credit he deserves.

Mr. Doak,  Thanks for explaining the elevated bunkers...that is so practical.  Nothing breaks a budget in New England like going underground and not knowing what you are going to run into.

Mr. Cole, I would give Chicopee and Hickory Ridge more credit...they are alot of fun and I think they are really well routed.  I will have to think some more about the Cornish courses I have played, but I think they all were great routings...maybe his greatest strength.  Were the routings good because of his attention to the budget?

Mr. Klein, his renovation work is surprising, but maybe you don't hold contemporaries or guys that you worked with as high up on a pedestal as we do.  Maybe that was the culture of architects back in the day and he carried it forward.  He certainly shouldn't be faulted for it, it wasn't until the 90's that a respect for past designs began to surface.  His book may even put him ahead of that curve a little.

Tim Gerrish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2008, 11:56:41 AM »
It is great to read all the kind comments regarding Mr. Cornish's work.  I will send him the thread today and with any luck if he not out on a long walk with the neighborhood dogs through the swamp in Amherst, I will get a return call before the fax has finished sending. 

I grew up playing a few of his additions in Maine; Brunswick, Bath and the municipal  course in Bangor.  I was attending UMaine when the work on the third nine was underway and was captivated by his bunkers.  They were so different than the other courses in the area.  As he so often says they had eye appeal.  I wasn’t aware of our classics then; Ross, Raynor, Mackenzie, etc. they meant nothing.  The history lessons all came when I first met Mr. Cornish and his wonderful wife Carol.

I’ve known and worked for Mr. Cornish for over ten years.  I may be the last of his interns, though some would argue that Steve Durkee and Brad Booth are.  In that time I can’t remember once discussing strategy on a course project.  We discussed eye appeal, the basics of art (form, scale, symmetry, etc.) and the names of people involved.  Perhaps therein lies the truth of what Mr. Cornish did for golf in the northeast.  He built golf courses for whatever budget and whatever site the client had.  Some of the holes might be awkward to play (short iron off the tee and fairway wood to the green) or be entirely devoid of strategy.  But they are maintainable!

While none of his courses will ever show up on a modern or classic course list, they will show up when budgets are tight and when having a place to play is.  Try to go through his list of courses and find the ones that have closed or are failing.  Even in these trying times, his courses are open for play, don’t need to advertise and might even spawn the next generation of course architect. 

Martin Del Vecchio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2008, 12:32:57 PM »
That one on #18 at Stow Acres North still drives me crazy just thinking about it.
My strategy on that hole is simple:  just aim for the tree.  I never once hit it, in about 2 dozen rounds there.

My strategy on his redesign/renovation projects at the classic New England courses:  just remember that those courses were then, and still are, generally unavailable to the great mass of golfers.  That's their right, of course, and I don't have a problem with private clubs at all. 

But how would the golf boom of the 1990s looked if these courses were not built? 

And how would the neighborhoods look if the old farm land had been used for housing developments?  Has anybody been to Gaithersburg, MD recently?  My sister lives in a 150-year-old farm house there, and she is surrounded by new development.

Don Hyslop

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2008, 02:54:20 PM »
Mr. Cornish has done some great work in Eastern Canada. Check out Summerlea in Quebec and its two 18 hole courses:
http://www.summerlea.com/thecourse.aspx

 There is a little nine hole jewell on Campobello Island ( where Franklin Roosevelt's summer home was located)  in the Bay of Fundy that has 2 sets of tees per hole sometimes making each hole play up to 60 yards longer on your second time around. Also 18 holes for $30.
http://www.campobello.com/bruce.html

Then there is York Downs in Ontario. You can take a video tour here:
http://www.yorkdowns.com/

Just down the highway from me is New Asburn where the Canadian Women's Open was held a few years ago. This course is rated very highly among Canadian courses.
http://www.ashburngolfclub.com/index.cfm?menu=8325

  With the couple of hundred courses he is responsible for in New Engand, many of the public ones have made the game acessible and affordable to thousands who might otherwise never have been able to play. Can you imagine, you were still able to play 18 holes at Bangor Municipal last year for less than $30 and a senior could play around during  the week before 11 am for $17.
  Geoffrey Cornish holds a well deserved place in the Royal Canadian Golf Hall of Fame.
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.


Tim Gerrish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2008, 04:24:14 PM »
For a little more information on Mr. Cornish and his accomplishments:

http://www.mcgolfdesign.com/designers/geoffreyscornish/

I don't think the Canadian Hall of Fame page does much justice!

Tim Gerrish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2008, 09:38:50 PM »
After reading the thread, Mr. Cornish wanted to post!  I hope some of you find his comments interesting.


"I was gratified by the generosity of all concerned.  Yet I share the glory, if any of restoring golf development in the Northeast at the end of the Korean War in 1953 following nearly a quarter century of depression and war.  Others were namely Mitchell Brothers (Bill, Sam and Henry) Al Zikorus and Phil Wogan and my long time partner Bill Robinson.

"Little money but boundless enthusiasm was demonstrated by all involved in developing courses.  One solution for the cashless problem was “work in progress” layouts involving opening of courses with important features omitted but later added as revenue was generated.  That system worked.  Perhaps because families were happy to be together again on a course finished or unfinished after having been scattered around the globe.  Often the procedures involved work parties perhaps stone picking.  They too were immensely successful if the keg of beer was not opened until work was complete.

"Approaching my first century on this earth I remain deeply impressed by what those people wrought. Many clubs became fabulous if they followed the plan.  While privately owned daily fee layouts open to the public improved as husbands wives and children put all available energy into, providing a good living for all.  The kids went thru college to become nuclear physicists, ambassador, philosophers etc. and, decades after a course opened it might be sold for millions.  Surely those guys and gals were “Giants on this earth”."

Geoffrey Cornish

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2008, 09:58:50 PM »
Nice to see Mr. Cornish's response and also the credit he gives to some others.  I just scanned the list of golf courses I've played and Cornish & Zikorus each come out only behind Dye and RTJ in terms of number of courses I've played by an architect. 

I only lived in New England for 6 years, but it is amazing to see the number of courses they built.  I would guess almost half of the public courses I played in the greater Hartford area were built by one of the two of them.

For a few years I thought that Rolling Meadows, where I was part of the Saturday morning men's club for several years, was a Cornish design, but it is actually a Zikorus.  I think the sister course, Cedar Knob, is a Cornish.

Both have put a stamp on the public golf options in the area, and I appreciate the contributions.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cornish Good for Golf in the Northeast?
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2008, 10:40:42 AM »
Geoff was the first guy to extend a hand to me (other than Algie) when I was a rookie.  He found out I was an Army Reserve Officer so we spent more time talking about his experience during D-Day with the Canadian Airborne than golf.  Fascinating what he did. 

When it came time for me to consider joining the ASGCA, he was the first person I called on to be a sponsor.  He graciously accepted and spent much time preparing me for the process.  He will always be one of my favorite people, although I am not sure I have played one of his courses.  Like Algie, he spent much of his time providing low cost golf to many people and should be commended for his work in the industry. 

Lester 

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back