[JMorgan]

Does anyone know if Ranfurly Castle GC is the only design for which Kirkaldy gets credit (shared with Auchterlonie)? 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Will check up on this for you.

Did you know that theHell Bunker on the Old Tom Morris article last week showed Andrew in the 1924 photo - playing reverse as per Bill's comments. Have a look and you will see it's A Kirkaldy.

[JMorgan]

Will check up on this for you.

Did you know that theHell Bunker on the Old Tom Morris article last week showed Andrew in the 1924 photo - playing reverse as per Bill's comments. Have a look and you will see it's A Kirkaldy.

Melvyn, thank you, and yes, I did notice him in the picture.   (That is a wonderful picture by the way!)

[Melvyn Morrow]

Have you read his book 'ifty Years of Golf 'and there
is an old article on the web.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0CE1DA153AEF33A25752C2A96E9C946095D6CF

[JMorgan]

Have you read his book 'ifty Years of Golf 'and there
is an old article on the web.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0CE1DA153AEF33A25752C2A96E9C946095D6CF

I've read snippets of it here and there in search of other things, but never the whole book at one sitting.  He was certainly a wizened golf soul.  And a true "no airs" gent.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I had my office about 400 yards from Royston Golf Club from the mid 1980 to 2000, but never played the course. Walked it a few times and spent many hours in the Club House.

Don't have that much on Kirkaldy only in connection with Old Tom. Also found no mention of courses he may have been involved with or designed.
But he was indeed well known for his open comments.

Good luck in your search - if I find anything I'll let you know.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have nothing on my database for Andra Kirkaldy. There may be somethings he has one that are no longer open of course.

[JMorgan]

I have nothing on my database for Andra Kirkaldy. There may be somethings he has one that are no longer open of course.

Thanks for looking, Adrian.

[Mike_Cirba]

James,

I'm passing this along from a noted golf historian who does not participate here;

The information regarding Kirkcaldy and Auchterlonie is
incorrect. The first nine was actually designed by Willie Campbell, and
 
a few years later Willie Park-Jr added the second nine. There is also a
 
story about Old Tom allowing a young Robert Foulis the
opportunity to design Ranfurly Castle, and Melvin Morrow suggested
Foulis or Morris may have invented the use of plasticine models on that project.
 
Those stories are both incorrect. Foulis did spend a year at Ranfurly
Castle but he had nothing to do with the design. He was in charge of
the caddies, and also did some club-making. He was 16 years old.

I don't know who invented the use of plasticine (for golf design) but the
first mention I've seen was Fowler saying the idea was first introduced
to him by Tom Simpson around 1909 or 1910.

[Melvyn Morrow]

MP

Why don't you let Tom MacWood speak for himself. First Ian, now you.

Old Tom recommended Robert Foulis for a job at Ranfurly Castle, but no design work was undertaken on behalf of Old Tom. So, no need for any models.

You sure he was indeed 16 years old? Because I thought he went to Renfurly just prior to emigrating in 1895/6, but hey, I am human and
do get things wrong at times!

MacWood’s words are not written in tablets of stone. This great man gets things wrong. But let’s not fall out over Tom, he's not worth it.

Invented, who said invented, yet again trying to put words in peoples mouths to try and prove his point, just typical of the man

Yes, models were made of greens for Old Tom's designs, other items were also made including a timber sideboard which I expect Tom will also dispute, but I don’t care as it's still in the family.



 

[Melvyn Morrow]

I was not going to bother to respond to comments from a noted historian, but as my name has been linked to an untrue statement, I feel that I must respond.

I would like to put on record that I never (well to the best of my memory), never mentioned plasticine models. I believe plasticine was not invented until the end of the 1890/1900. I have just checked and it was formulated by William Harbutt near Bath in 1897, some two years after Robert Foulis left for the USA.

So the comment that ‘ Melvin Morrow suggested’ by a noted golf historian posted yesterday at 09.01:16pm that ‘Foulis or Old Tom may have invented the use of plasticine models on that project’ was not just wrong, but totally inaccurate, as plasticine was not invented until 1897. Rather unfair and misleading statement and certainly never suggested by me. Why would I mention plasticine and its use pre 1897.

I have not undertaken any real research on the Foulis brothers, but I believe that there is another error, Robert Foulis was born in 1874 (died 1945), went to Renfurly Castle on recommendation from Old Tom - in, I believe 1894 (not 1889, which was the date of the design of Renfurly) as he declined C B MacDonald offer of Chicago (1894) due to his contract with Renfurly. But sailed for the USA in the summer of 1895. Making him not 16 years old but around twenty years of age when at Renfurly. Small mistake in both dates but an important one. It’s still incorrect information from a noted historian – again.

It is unbelievably pathetic to have to resort to putting word in people’s mouths or, as in this case, quote fictitious statements to try a prove ones point. So arrogant, by the mere fact of not even bothering to check Robert’s correct age. Perhaps you may now understand why I have no time for this noted historian.

As for Tom Simpson, he may well have been the first to use plasticine in golf models, but he was not the first to use models.

[Mike_Cirba]

Melvyn,

Please don't shoot the messenger.   I know next to nothing about this topic but I do have great respect for James and his research and I simply wanted to pass on what had been relayed to me so that he had a fuller, if less clear picture.

I meant absolutely no offense to you and appreciate your participation on this board.   I think the timeframe we are talking about has more questions than answers and I know from my own research that information can be misleading and even contradictory at times, so I don't think we're working in an exact science, especially as we try to individually interpret the meaning of events.

I hope you consider this response as in no way mean-spirited or targeting you, but in simply trying to provide James Morgan with information. 

Best Wishes,
Mike

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

I have no problems with you and my comments were not aimed at you.

I have learnt that we all need to understand the original question before even trying to have a debate.

I searched through the old Estate records not just Golf magazines or newspapers for information. This proves to be the best course to undertake any research. But I am not a historian just interested in history.

I hope you received my direct e-mail.




   

[Mike_Cirba]

Melvyn,

I did receive it.   Thank you very much.

Cheers!
Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

James/Melvyn,

Please see the following from Tom;


Melvyn
I apologize if my comments upset you ~ perhaps I misunderstood what
you’d previously said about the models. Robert Foulis was born in
 1873
and went to Ranfurly in 1894 – you are correct on both counts.

The story I was referring to about Foulis designing Ranfurly comes from
 
Jim Healy’s featured interview from July 2003.I should have been more
 
specific.
He claimed Foulis designed Ranfurly in 1889. In fact Willie Campbell
designed the first nine in 1889 and Willie Park II added the second
nine in 1894. Foulis would have been sixteen in 1889.

My reference to model making came from your post on 1/28: “Lost,
regrettable are the models of greens that Robert Foulis also made for
Old Tom designs in the early 1890’s. Shows just how detailed some of
Old Tom’s designs became, critics please take note. Real models of
Greens, 100 years before CAD was used in golf course design. Hope that
opens the minds of his modern day critics.”

That is my mistake ~ I wrongly thought the models you were referring to
 
were plasticine. Are you saying they were carved from wood or some
other material?

The story of Foulis building models for Old Tom comes from the book 
‘The Saftest O’ The Family’ written by Eleanor Foulis Miller. In
 the
book she claims OTM approached a young Robert Foulis (he was working at
 
the time as an apprentice in Old Tom’s shop) and asked RF to design a
 
golf course for him. According to the book Old Tom was too busy to
design it himself. So Foulis put a plan on paper and even made a model
of one green showing bunkers around it (she doesn’t say what it was
made of either). He then submitted everything to Old Tom for approval.
After a couple of tense days waiting for the old man's verdict, OTM
finally told Foulis, and I quote, ‘Aye, you’ve done yersel
 proud.’ OTM
then told the boy, much to his surprise, the project was all his, he
needed to work with the contractor, negotiate with club, and oversee
the construction.

I take it you have checked out the validity of this story. I must admit
I was skeptical; however there must be a club somewhere in Scotland who
believes they have a Tom Morris design from the early 1890s but
actually have a golf course designed by a teenage Robert Foulis. Have
you been able to discover what golf course or golf courses Foulis
collaborate with OTM?

Warm regards, Tom

[Melvyn Morrow]

Hi Tom

No, you have not upset me because at the end of the day I am just seeking the truth everything else is simply irrelevant. I have no problem if Old Tom was not involved with this or that project. As I have constantly mentioned he was not super human.

I would ask you to remember a point I e-mailed Mike this afternoon, that
if you cannot find a birth or marriage certificate does that mean that that person did not exist or they did not marry and that their children are illegitimate. No, not necessarily it may mean that no written records exist or has survived (due to fires, movement of documents etc.etc).

Back to the matter in hand, yes I read Jim’s interview and have been in contact with him on many occasions. Plus I have been in contact with Renfurly Castle GC and Clive Cummings regards their early history. The results of my search is as follows.

1889 no involvement by Old Tom in design or by Robert Foulis. Robert joined the club in 1894, but not as professional, but with responsibility
for the caddies, and repair clubs. His stay was short, but regrettable long enough to decline the Chicago Clubs job offered by MacDonald. Robert was unhappy at Renfurly, but was not alone. He left to join his brother in the USA.

I am involved in a few searches at the moment, but have not come across any course that Old Tom passed on to Robert to design. That is not to say he did not, it’s just that I have found no connection as yet. That also includes the courses that Old Tom has been accredited with as either original designer, modified, surveyed or asked for his opinion that the land was suitable for a golf course. Let’s not forget that Old Tom prepared many designs for clubs that failed to agree leases or changed their minds over land deals. Designs never converted into a course - perhaps one of these may have been Roberts project.

I am also aware of the claims made by Roberts daughter in her book.

I have seen and am aware of item manufactured by Robert for Old Tom between the late 1880 to mid 1890’s. My grandmother Jamesina, Old Tom’s youngest granddaughter owned and lived at 6 Pilmour Links (Old Tom main house sited directly behind his shop which housed many of Old Tom’s possessions – although he took with him most of Young Toms items when he moved out of the house into the flat above his shop). My father lived at 6 Pilmour from the 1913 to the mid 1930’s and when we returned to see my grandfather, he would point out many items that still remained in the main house. Some of these items are now scattered around the family. I
do not know what the models had been made of but they have long since disappeared. Was it just a few for one project or for various, I cannot confirm either way, but I have been told they did exist.

[JMorgan]

Tom/(Mike), I think you are confusing Ranfurly Castle with Old Ranfurly (Bridge o Weir), where Willie Campbell was pro from 1889-1891.

[Melvyn Morrow]

James

The following is from Clive Cumming who I contacted last year re Jim Healey's article in GCA.com, I believe that Tom has also been in contact with him. Hope the following in Clive'e own words explains any misunderstandings .

1889: William Campbell of Prestwick laid out a 9 hole course to be known

1889: William Campbell of Prestwick laid out a 9 hole course to be known as Ranfurly Castle Golf Club.

1893: Andrew Sommerville of Dunbar was offered the combined post of
Clubmaker/House Attendent which however he declined.

1894:  A further 9 holes were by Willie Park Jnr of Musselburgh.

1894: J.W. Boyd Greenkeeper and R. Foulis Clubmaker/House Attendent were despatched with two guineas apiece to take part in the championship at Sandwich.

In late June R. Foulis was called in and instructed that caddies must be kept in order and it was decided to stratify the bag carriers.  First class caddies had to make do with sixpence.  Foulis himself was in bother with committee.  He has returned late from the championship and it was complained that he had played matches for money against members, something which was specifically against his terms of appointment unless by special arrangement with the professional.

1895:  Robert Foulis goes to America to join his brother Jim.  View
website http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewhealey.html.  The web site shows R. Foulis being associated with Ranfurly Castle in 1889 whereas our records show him at the club in 1893 four years after the course was laid out by W Campbell.

1927: 48 acres of land was purchased for £800; this was to become our
present 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th. 8th and 12th holes.  This put a hold on any further of James Braid's recommendations until plans could be drawn up on how to incorporate the new ground into the existing course.  Harry S. Colt, golf architect, was asked to come up with a suitable design and proposed two separate designs (A) & (B) James F. Robson, Club Captain 1926-1927, also submitted a design (C). All three were considered by the club; the course as we know it today is the the design of James F. Robson. The construction and hole design was carrried outby Harry S. Colt and the redesigned course was brought into play in June 1930. The three sketches of the re-designed course can be seen hanging in the Gentlemen's Locker Room.

 

[JMorgan]

James

The following is from Clive Cumming who I contacted last year re Jim Healey's article in GCA.com, I believe that Tom has also been in contact with him. Hope the following in Clive'e own words explains any misunderstandings .

1889: William Campbell of Prestwick laid out a 9 hole course to be known

1889: William Campbell of Prestwick laid out a 9 hole course to be known as Ranfurly Castle Golf Club.

1893: Andrew Sommerville of Dunbar was offered the combined post of
Clubmaker/House Attendent which however he declined.

1894:  A further 9 holes were by Willie Park Jnr of Musselburgh.

1894: J.W. Boyd Greenkeeper and R. Foulis Clubmaker/House Attendent were despatched with two guineas apiece to take part in the championship at Sandwich.

In late June R. Foulis was called in and instructed that caddies must be kept in order and it was decided to stratify the bag carriers.  First class caddies had to make do with sixpence.  Foulis himself was in bother with committee.  He has returned late from the championship and it was complained that he had played matches for money against members, something which was specifically against his terms of appointment unless by special arrangement with the professional.

1895:  Robert Foulis goes to America to join his brother Jim.  View
website http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewhealey.html.  The web site shows R. Foulis being associated with Ranfurly Castle in 1889 whereas our records show him at the club in 1893 four years after the course was laid out by W Campbell.

1927: 48 acres of land was purchased for £800; this was to become our
present 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th. 8th and 12th holes.  This put a hold on any further of James Braid's recommendations until plans could be drawn up on how to incorporate the new ground into the existing course.  Harry S. Colt, golf architect, was asked to come up with a suitable design and proposed two separate designs (A) & (B) James F. Robson, Club Captain 1926-1927, also submitted a design (C). All three were considered by the club; the course as we know it today is the the design of James F. Robson. The construction and hole design was carrried outby Harry S. Colt and the redesigned course was brought into play in June 1930. The three sketches of the re-designed course can be seen hanging in the Gentlemen's Locker Room.

 

Melvyn,

Thank you much again for delving into this. 

As I asked Tom above, is it possible that Mr. Cumming means Old Course Ranfurly instead of Ranfurly Castle course regarding his timeline?   

[Melvyn Morrow]

James

Have e-mailed Clive for an answer to your question.
Old Course or Castle Course?

Advise you when I get a reply

[TEPaul]

"It is unbelievably pathetic to have to resort to putting word in people’s mouths or, as in this case, quote fictitious statements to try a prove ones point. So arrogant, by the mere fact of not even bothering to check Robert’s correct age. Perhaps you may now understand why I have no time for this noted historian."

Melvyn:

Who are you referring to as the noted historian? Would that be Tom MacWood, expert researcher/writer/noted historian from the small village of Ivory Tower, Ohio?

If so, this stuff about Foulis and Kirkaldy and Ranfurly is small potatoes. The central question is DO YOU or DO YOU NOT believe that the Arts and Crafts Movement was the primary influence on the great Golden Age of Golf Course Architecture and that Horace Hutchinson should be considered "THE FATHER" (or at least "The Guide") of ALL golf course architecture? 

[TEPaul]

Melvyn:

I might be mistaken (if I am it would be the first time) but I seem to recall that the noted historian, Tom MacWood, before he left this site, said Old Tom Morris had about as much golf architectural talent as a ditch-digging mortician's assistant!

 

[Mike_Cirba]

James/Melvyn,

This is the reply I received;


Ranfurly Castle dates back to 1889; Old Ranfurly was established in
1905. I'm not sure why the 'Old' in Old Ranfurly...maybe because it
sounds better than Young Ranfurly or Ranfurly New.

There is a website with a bio on Willie Campbell that mistakenly claims
 
he was engaged at OR. Both clubs are in Bridge of Weir so its easy to
see why there would be confusion, but WC definitely was the original
architect of RC, and worked there for a few years as well. Besides poor
 
Willie had been dead for fives years when OR was built.


Hope this helps.

[Melvyn Morrow]

TE
Tom can believe whatever he wants.

He certainly does not rate Old Tom, but that’s fine.  He has the right to his opinion. He looks for reason to fault Old Tom, again let him.

He neither, upsets nor annoys me. After my first encounter I realised that is was pointless debating any issue with him, his mid is set – he believe that
he is always right and that his interpretations are the only ones that count.

Tom also likes to accuse others of selective reading, but he is more guilty than anyone else. He belittles those who do not agree with him, their opinions and comments are ridiculed i.e. Old Tom’s visit to Lahinch with his daughter, Elizabeth and granddaughter in 1890’s. Tom‘s explanation for this visit reads as follows, ‘impression this may have been a pleasure trip’ - A pleasure trip for an old man in his mid 70s trekking across Scotland and Ireland in the 1890 – a pleasure trip? Yet where is his beloved proof, the article in the newspaper to support is opinion? – alas no proof, just speculation; trying to make the story fit his theories.

Why waist time trying to persuade a closed mind? I know the truth, he does not. He’s trying to join dots which don’t exist to suite his beliefs. Fine, if that is what the man is like and it makes him happy, leave him to get on with it.

As for the comment, ‘OTM the great golf course designer is a fairly recent phenomenon originating about 20-25 years ago’ just look at all the Golf Magazines, Golfers Guide, Newspapers of the time and Tulloch’s Book and tell me he was not a well know course designer, highly regarded in his day. He was the Big Celebrity of his day, which spanned decades unlike some of today’s short term celebrities. He is no modern day phenomenon.

I cannot, nor do I wish to stop anyone from having an opinion. By all means listen to his comments but make up your own mind. I would rather put up with his comments even though I might not agree with them than suffer censorship or restriction on our freedom of speech. His opinions are a small price to pay for that freedom.

As for Horace, not what I call a good friend and certainly no father of anything - where did he get his ideas from I wonder?

[TEPaul]

Melvyn:

Interesting post which accurately reflects many of my own thoughts and feelings. Perhaps the deal was if one can't take the challenge on here to his ideas and assumptions and conclusions the only thing to do is just take your ball and leave. But he wasn't the only one who apparently felt that way.

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