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Chuck Brown

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Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 02:37:35 PM »
The inventor, Edward Stimpson, and the redesigner, Frank Thomas, both thought/think that it is a TERRIBLE idea to use Stimpmeters for any purpose other than what they were intended -- for superintendents to make green speeds consistent from one hole to the next.  The notion of them being used for bragging rights on speed, or for further mechanizing the game, is what they feared.

Do you know where I could get that quote/comment from the inventors?

Thanks

Paul - Sorry for the delay -- I've been away from this thread.  Damned day job, you know?

Here is the USGA's mini-tutorial on the Stimpmeter, with lots of good info including useful quotes for you.  Mr. Stimpson is gone of course, but you might get Frank Thomas to comment personally if you contact him by e-mail.

http://www.usga.org/news/2006/january/stimpmeter.html

Jimmy Muratt

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Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2008, 03:14:54 PM »
I've seen posted stimpmeter readings at Crystal Downs and Briar's Creek.

Jason McNamara

Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2008, 01:45:32 AM »
Woodforest in Houston always had the stimpmeter reading posted (of course they never change the sign from 11) and whenever I speak to one of the people in the shop they comment that they have the best greens in town and all you need to do is look at the stimpeter reading. Of course this is the same shop attendent that asked me where Southern Hills is. ::)

Hope you told him it's just south of Houston.  ;)

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2008, 02:19:51 AM »
I've seen posted stimpmeter readings at Crystal Downs and Briar's Creek.

If it's over 10 at Crystal Downs, it's going to be tough out there.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2008, 06:00:28 PM »
TPC of Louisiana does it.  I wonder if other TPC public course do it also.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Sam Morrow

Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2008, 06:22:02 PM »
Woodforest in Houston always had the stimpmeter reading posted (of course they never change the sign from 11) and whenever I speak to one of the people in the shop they comment that they have the best greens in town and all you need to do is look at the stimpeter reading. Of course this is the same shop attendent that asked me where Southern Hills is. ::)

Hope you told him it's just south of Houston.  ;)
I made some douchey remark to her.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2008, 08:29:19 PM »
They have posted the readings fairly regularly at one of my clubs.  What's the big deal...They range from 9-12.5 and are measured every day by the assistant pro.  Noone complains, noone brags...its just like knowing the hole positions for the day (are you afraid that the members will constantly ask for tougher hole placements if you give them a pin sheet?)  I don't get the consternation.

Bart

JR Potts

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Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2008, 10:11:20 PM »
They have posted the readings fairly regularly at one of my clubs.  What's the big deal...They range from 9-12.5 and are measured every day by the assistant pro.  Noone complains, noone brags...its just like knowing the hole positions for the day (are you afraid that the members will constantly ask for tougher hole placements if you give them a pin sheet?)  I don't get the consternation.

Bart

Because consternation of all that is new, exactly measured and modern is what keeps this board alive.  At least the discussion that is.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2008, 12:18:53 AM »
Is there really much value in knowing what they are in advance, or even at all?  I don't think knowing it is going to help me.  I can tell whether the greens are fast or not just by looking at them, they get this kind of a sheen when they are wicked quick and I know to be really careful if I'm starting the day going downhill.  Usually I'll roll a ball around or take a few putts on the first couple greens after holing out to get an idea for the speed.

I do better seeing the speed versus putting it, so I learn just as much rolling the ball with my hand or watching the runout on other people's chips and putts.  I know how to hit the ball as easy as it is possible to hit it, that's not the trick, its being able to visualize what its going to do, especially the insane amount of break you get on slopey greens that are on the edge of sanity where it takes 10 seconds to roll the last 10 feet.  Those are fun days, so long as the course isn't busy with a lot of out of towners!

But just because I don't see any value in them for myself, doesn't mean I have a problem with them being posted.  I could see for some people that they'd get some confidence, whether real or imagined, by knowing the exact speed.  Its annoying that some people will use it as a bragging point or something to complain about, but someone who is going to complain that some older course with slopey greens is "only" 10 when their brand new course with pool table flat greens is 12 can remain in ignorance with my blessing :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2008, 01:19:00 PM »
I'm glad that many of the comments on this thread seem to be along the right mindset. There are definetely a few points of note:

1) Greens speed is extremely RELATIVE. Small, flat greens running at 12 are going to feel a heck of alot easier than wildly sloping and undulating greens at 12. I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned this downfall to comparing Stimp readings from course to course....bad idea.

2) I completely agree with Stimpmeter readings (along with the "Thumpmeter" for greens firmness) being an excellent tool for superintendents ONLY to assist in evaluating the consistancy of their greens on a green by green basis and as a course average over a period of time.

3) I really believe it is of absolutely no use for golfers to know what the reading is by having it posted. It wouldn't bother me if I did have to post it, but it's pointless because...

A: I have specifically heard of a trial done in which golfers with a range of skills were asked to putt on various surfaces and guess the relative speeds and Stimpmeter readings. Only TOUR professionals could estimate by feel the actual readings within 6". Everyone else on average could not guess the reading within over a foot.

B: If you can't figure out how firmly or softly you're going to need to hit your putts after hitting a dozen putts on the practice green, a number is never going to assist you further.

C: While it has been mentioned that greens speeds may not change much over the course of a day, they do change. And sometimes not just slower or faster. They can go from slow to fast to slow, etc. all in one day. Weather conditions, any maintenance done on the greens throughout the day (mowing, rolling, syringing with water, etc.), and people traffic all play a role. Even more so, it can be possible that speeds away from the hole can be different than around the hole by the end of the day after compaction and wear from concentrated foot traffic.

D: The Stimpmeter readings are relative and subjective. A large part of  how accurate the reading is is determined by who is taking it and the process they use to actually come up with that number. I can go take a reading and give the Stimpmeter to 10 other guys and they'll all probably come up with different readings, some of them possibly more than a foot off if they don't use an effective procedure.

I actually just went out on my course today and did an evaluation of all the greens for my own personal evaluation (I am a superintendent) and I can post the results and procedure if anyone wishes, but it would be quite a write up as a truly effective and accurate procedure takes some time and much trial and error.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Jim Nugent

Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2008, 01:26:20 PM »
JSPayne -- how much difference on stimp readings do you find between various greens at your course, on the same day?  Do most or all the greens roll pretty much the same, or do you find several feet difference?

Your last post was real interesting, btw. 

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2008, 01:32:32 PM »
Jim,

I found up to 2' difference between greens on my course. However, these readings are coming after a verticut and topdress yesterday so I don't expect them to be spot on. But ideally, by my own personal standards, I would like to see them all within a foot of each other. Anything within a foot I can attribute to my own errors in taking the measurements or specific microclimates and situations on individual greens. And also, as I mentioned before, I work at a public golf course and I would put money on your average public golfer not being able to tell the difference in speeds within a foot.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2008, 01:44:04 PM »
The inventor, Edward Stimpson, and the redesigner, Frank Thomas, both thought/think that it is a TERRIBLE idea to use Stimpmeters for any purpose other than what they were intended -- for superintendents to make green speeds consistent from one hole to the next.  The notion of them being used for bragging rights on speed, or for further mechanizing the game, is what they feared.

Says it all.  Perhaps just adding the consistency of the practice putting green, as well.   

 Stimp info is for the Supers to know and the players to find out.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2008, 04:35:57 PM »
Isn't Dave Pelz coming out with a new version of the Stimpmeter?  I remember seeing something about it last year and he was saying that it is a more accurate representation of green speed by calculating ball distances rolled in various angles.  Has anyone else heard anything about it?
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2008, 04:52:48 PM »
The whole speed of greens thing is kind of silly....I mean it ain't like temperature of the oven, or speed of the car...where you have to know and not knowing makes a difference.

The speed is what it is and whether it's 8 or 11 you adjust and putt the damn ball in the hole....what good is it to know whether it is 8 or 11???   If it's eleven are you not going to play that day? If it's eight will you use a different putter that day? Of course not....

THE ONLY thing green speed is used for is bragging that you putted on a fast green....period.

It doesn't surprise me that Dave Pelz is coming out with a "better" stimpmeter...the guy is a salesman.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2008, 08:14:55 PM »
1. Trueness......if the super can correctly manage the greens culturally he will achieve dense,   upright growth of the grass plant. Also, with stringent use of plant growth regulators he can minimize growth throughout the afternoon....therefore achieving trueness.

2. Firmness......Roll, Roll, Roll. Then manage the water correctly. Rolling ABSOLUTELY helps with the greens firmness and contributes to its trueness. Alot of supers also dont understand that a dry green is a healthy green. The first sight of a little wilt they send out guys watering down to the roots. A little wilt is the lack of water in the foliage, not the root system. So water the canopy just enough to get through the day. Water more on the isolated areas where needed. Bottom line is a soft green means alot of water.

3. The stimp isnt worth anything other than the super maintaing consistancy from green to green. Microclimates on the course can differentiate how a green acts. The stimp helps the super adjust from green to green if needed. Hopefully he doesnt need to alot because he is able to accomplish #1.

4. Posting the stimp reading is the cheesiest thing Ive ever seen!!! Complete misuse of the tool.

5. True players are more concerned for the firmness and trueness. Will the ball plug on the green with an approach shot or will it hit and release? Will the ball roll straight and smooth on a straight shot or will it bounce off course to the cup?

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2008, 10:05:09 PM »
I'm glad that many of the comments on this thread seem to be along the right mindset. There are definetely a few points of note:

1Only TOUR professionals could estimate by feel the actual readings within 6". Everyone else on average could not guess the reading within over a foot.

Sorry but I would put my money on a superintendent over a tour pro at guessing speeds.

Chris Tritabaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2008, 11:56:25 AM »
As a Superintendent I have to say, the vast majority of golfers, good and bad, have no idea what a stimpmeter reading actually means.  Example: I was on the course last season with a stimpmeter the day before our biggest tournament.  The greens were dry firm and fast.  I had taken readings on a couple of greens and gotten close to 12 on all of them.  I stopped by a group, with four guys all of whom were a 4 or less.  They asked what the stimp was, I told them 12 and one of the gentlemen said, "no, they seem more like a 9".  Considering a 9 to a 12 is actually 3 feet of roll, this fellow really had no idea what the number meant.  This winter I have done some educating for the membership on the stimpmeter.  What the number means, what the tool is meant to be used for, and what might cause speeds to vary over the course of a season.  Here is the link to my blog post on green speed.

http://northlandgrounds.blogspot.com/2008/02/more-on-green-speed.html

 

Jim Nugent

Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2008, 07:21:14 PM »
I'm still unclear about what stimp readings mean for the golfer.  Say one green stimps at 12 and another at 6.  Do you have to hit your putt twice as hard at the 2nd green, to go the same distance?  (Assume both greens are flat and the stimp readings consistent.)

I've been told that with slope, the higher stimp greens get exponentially faster.  What about flat spots?   

Kyle Harris

Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2008, 08:44:56 PM »
I'm still unclear about what stimp readings mean for the golfer.  Say one green stimps at 12 and another at 6.  Do you have to hit your putt twice as hard at the 2nd green, to go the same distance?  (Assume both greens are flat and the stimp readings consistent.)

I've been told that with slope, the higher stimp greens get exponentially faster.  What about flat spots?   

You're overthinking it, really.

Since a stimpmeter rolls a ball down a set angle, there really is no "zero" unless one is stimping into a wall. The ball will roll even a little bit on the slowest of surfaces. Therefore, it's not really possible to say that a reading of 12 is "twice" as fast as a reading of 6...

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2008, 04:46:09 PM »
Well, you roll the ball at a set angle from a set position, thus if properly measured it will exit the stimpmeter at the same speed every time.  The reading you get is how many feet it takes friction to stop the ball.  You are really measuring rolling friction, not speed (sorta like "rolling resistance" in bicycle or automobile tires)

When TEPaul uses the word "exponential" when talking about greens stimping over 11, he's talking about what you see on a green with a fair amount of slope.  Because the greater the slope the lesser the friction, it takes less slope on a green with less friction (higher stimp reading) to get to the point where gravity overwhelms friction and the ball won't stop until it reaches an area of lower slope or higher friction (i.e., off the green surface)

At 10 perhaps only 1% of a certain green's surface renders the ball nearly or completely unstoppable.  At 11, maybe its 10%, at 12 maybe its 90% (not unreasonable for a green that's a large overall tilt, like most of those at my home course)  Hence, exponential.

I don't know what polished concrete or marble floors stimp at, but I would imagine it is probably 20+.  But anyone could putt those "greens" without any trouble once they hit a few putts, because they are flat....well, maybe not the floors in the Leaning Tower of Pisa :)

If you had a polished concrete driveway that's got the slightest amount of slope (probably 1% grade would be sufficient) it would be unputtable because once a ball starting rolling on it, gravity would take over and it'd end up in the street.  Note that I'm talking about polished concrete, even smoother than than the smooth concrete you might have in your garage, definitely not the deliberately roughened surface you see in most driveways, sidewalks and streets!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2008, 11:51:13 PM »
  I heard of a course in my area where a member who was complaining about consistent speeds has bought his own stimpmeter, gathers his own data during the round and keeps a spread sheet. The variance reportedly last weekend was from 7.5 to 9.
 

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2008, 11:41:33 PM »
Pete...I don't doubt that at all...lots of factors at play...it's spring time, the weather is up and down, one day the green might be rolled etc...are they mowing everyday now in your area?  Has the height of cut been lowered during the week? Does the guy using the stimpmeter know how to use it? Is he being consistant?

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2008, 02:10:07 AM »
Craig,
   The numbers were from one day, so most of the variables you mention are irrelevant. The course is transitioning from bent to poa so different greens may be further along in the process.
   

Eric Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Posted Stimpmeter Readings
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2008, 06:34:16 AM »
You know maintenance expectations have gotten out of hand when a golfer buys his own stimpmeter and is trying to take readings on greens as he plays...absolutely the most absurd thing I have heard in quite some time...OK...at least today. I guess we will have to start issuing licenses for the purchase of a stimpmeter so we can ensure they do not fall into the wrong hands.
It is what it is.

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