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Brian Cenci

Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« on: March 07, 2008, 06:39:39 PM »
I'm out at sea in the Caribbean and am cutoff from society.  Can someone post the Golfweek's Most/Least categories for like worst bunkers, most underated course, etc that was submitted ny the raters.  Also, could someone post the best-in-state for Michigan.  Would be greatly appreaciated.

-Brian
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 06:42:01 PM by Brian Cenci »

David Neveux

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2008, 10:22:21 PM »
Don't worry you made the cut, it's funny though I don't remember you saying anything about the 86 PGA and Bobby Tway's shot from the front bunker!!!!!  ;) If I recall you were in that front bunker, then over the green long, then back in that bunker!!!  What you should have wrote about is how we got lost out there, OT- is that the better routing??? ;D 

David Neveux

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2008, 10:29:47 PM »
Michigan

1.  Arcadia Bluffs
2.  Forest Dunes
3.  Greywalls
4.  Bay Harbor (links / quarry)
5.  Tullymore
6.  Treetops North (smith)
7.  Angels Crossing
8.  Lakewood Shores Resort (gailes)
9.  Wilderness Valley GC (black forest)
10. Eagle Eye
12. High Pointe
13. Treetops North (fazio)
14. Boyne Highlands (heather)
15. Pilgrims Run

Hmmmm....I very interesting list to say the least.  I wonder how Greywalls doesn't top the charts with that inflated rating you gave it!! ;) (somewhere John Kavanaugh is smiling)

CJ Carder

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Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2008, 11:59:15 PM »
How does Shephard's Hollow not even make the Top 15 on that list?  I was very impressed with the course when I played there in 2004 just before the Ryder Cup.

John Kirk

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Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2008, 01:48:49 AM »
Angels Crossing well up the list.  One of our guys owns and operates that course, I believe.

Jim Thompson

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Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2008, 03:24:50 AM »
John,

Sadly, I am no longer involved in the day to day operations of the project.  In fact a number of things are currently underway that I doubt anyone would even believe and probably aren't suitable for public discussion.  That said, I am not at all shocked to see Angels making its way up tje Best of Lists.  The course and project are truly unique and a very special setting.  I believe as more find their way to the course it will continue to rise up the ranking.  One item of note is that it has achieved this level of accolade without a formal clubhouse or liquor license.  The rating truly does reflect the quality of the golf that resulted form all of the members of the project team, including Bruce Matthews, Roger Barton, my bother Robert Thompson, shaper Dave Herman and myself.  My hope is that the project makes it through Michigan's current economic issues to reach its full potential, but the project has a bumpy road ahead.  My services are currently available to any interested party out there and quite frankly, I think I’m a hell of a catch for anyone in the business due to my various skill sets, common sense approach and the fact that I can out work almost anyone.  Then again, I’m probably a little biased.  Thank you for the kind comments and as always I hope many of you will come out and experience a classic modern golf course.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

David Neveux

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 03:28:26 AM »
Mr. Carter,

I concur with your thoughts on Shepards hollow.  A very good golf course, that can be played at a very reasonable rate.  

Mr. Kirk,

Our own Jim Thompson was involved out there but I think he is now working somewhere else.  If memory serves me correctly his brother was owner / part owner?  Brain Cenci and myself played 36 holes out there and really did enjoy the golf course and definitely enjoyed Jim's company.  He is certainly a character, and I wish we could of got that beer after the round.  My favorite memory is Jim chasing geese at full speed in his cart, or maybe the twosome who parked there cart right next to the green.  

Jim,

If you read this take it easy on those geese, I do believe they are considered to be a migratory bird ;D ;D

David Neveux

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2008, 03:29:26 AM »
and there you are!!

Jim Thompson

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Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2008, 03:38:59 AM »
Dave,

I only played nine holes out at Angels last year and really struggled to turn off both my emotional and detail eye.  I know you know what I mean.  I don't think I'll ever be able to play the course again with any but the best of friends and would certainly look forward to playing with you and Brian again.  Especially, if Brian keeps pressing.  Wigs, RJ, Paul, Silis, Schmidt, Kavanaugh, Hendren, Young, McBride, Hancock would also be enough to get me back out there.

All the best and I look forward to seeing many of you in the future!

JT
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 03:42:56 AM by Jim Thompson »
Jim Thompson

Sean_A

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Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2008, 05:07:20 AM »
Michigan

1.  Arcadia Bluffs
2.  Forest Dunes
3.  Greywalls
4.  Bay Harbor (links / quarry)
5.  Tullymore
6.  Treetops North (smith)
7.  Angels Crossing
8.  Lakewood Shores Resort (gailes)
9.  Wilderness Valley GC (black forest)
10. Eagle Eye
12. High Pointe
13. Treetops North (fazio)
14. Boyne Highlands (heather)
15. Pilgrims Run

Hmmmm....I very interesting list to say the least.  I wonder how Greywalls doesn't top the charts with that inflated rating you gave it!! ;) (somewhere John Kavanaugh is smiling)

It always pleases me to see Lakewood Shores remain highly thought of.  It was built at a time when courses hit the limelight and then slid into oblivion.  The list looks to be fairly solid though I am not overly keen on Boyne or the Treetops courses.  They are good, but nothing to write home about.  I believe Shepherd's Hollow to at least be of that sort of quality if not slightly better.  I spose its time to get back there for a trip, but to be honest I don't think I could take 4-5 days of Michigan style high end public/resort golf.  The two that I would like to see the most are Angel's Crossing and High Pointe, not least because I believe they are a bit more low key and fairly cheap.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

JohnH

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Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2008, 09:27:07 AM »
Eagle Eye is a must play...

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2008, 01:36:38 PM »
Can someone explain why The Mines (Mike DeVries) layout doesn't get any added attention? I have not played the course but from the varied people I know who have played it the raves are quite high. I have played a number of the top state public courses and would like to get some thoughts from those who have played The Mines and those others.

Thanks ...

David Neveux

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2008, 02:35:15 PM »
Jim,

I think maybe this summer we should get back out there, wait did I just hear someone press??

Mr. JohnH,

Eagle Eye is a must play, and as Brian and I live 5 miles from the course would be happy to meet anyone from GCA interested in a game!!

Mr. Ward,

I honestly forgot to get out to the Mines last year and it is very high on my list of places to see once the F'in SNOW MELTS >:( ;D.  The real question  is how will this course stack up to the likes of Kingsly and Greywalls??  I realize that it is a public venture, but those are the only other Mike Devries designs I have played (unless you count Pilgrims Run, but I can't get a straight answer on who / how it was formally designed.)

Mr. Arble,

High Pointe and Angels may be low key in terms of not being a resort style course per se, the game of golf you'll find is anything but low key!!  It's true that both sit on the cheaper end of the public golf spectrum here in Michigan.  These two courses symbolize whats both right and good about premier public access golf.  Great golf at an affordable price, hopefully that will help pull both of these courses through our statewide economic difficulties Jim mentioned earlier.  Other courses here in East Lansing which I think fit that mold as well are the aforementioned Eagle Eye, and College Fields.  It seems to me that one can get a game at the Mines in Grand Rapids for something like 35 USD. 

Brian Cenci

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2008, 03:21:58 PM »
Don't worry you made the cut, it's funny though I don't remember you saying anything about the 86 PGA and Bobby Tway's shot from the front bunker!!!!!  ;) If I recall you were in that front bunker, then over the green long, then back in that bunker!!!  What you should have wrote about is how we got lost out there, OT- is that the better routing??? ;D 

It was all justified....it was too cold out, too windy and too much other stuff going on!

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2008, 03:29:35 PM »
David N:

My point about The Mines centers, to some degree, on the fact that the DeVries record in MI is quite impressive when you combine the dynamic duo of Kingsley and Greywalls into the mixture.

Like I said -- be curious to see how others who have played The Mines see the course in terms of its creativity as a follow-up to what DeVries did with Kingsley and Greywalls.

Also, one has to note the fees charged there when compared to other public layouts in MI that are highly touted.

George Freeman

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Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2008, 03:30:25 PM »
For the people out there who have played it, what do you think of College Fields?

Dave, you mentioned it above as being in the category of cheap, good golf; and I couldn't agree more.  I try to get in a round there whenever I'm in town (and there isn't a foot of snow on the ground!).  It's a fun, inexpensive, easy walking, quirky little golf course in good shape.  Not to mention is has some pretty interesting design features.  And when I say cheap: I think I played there last fall, walking for somewhere around $10-15 dollars...which is one of the best deals I have encountered.

I'd be interested to hear other peoples thought's on the course.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Doug Ralston

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2008, 04:04:59 PM »
Isn't #11 missing?

I agree that Eagle Eye is indeed a must play. Be interested to hear comments from the 'minimalist' crowd. I think it was great; the par-5's are awesome.

Where is Timberstone? How can every other listing I see rate them Top 5, and yet they do not appear at all on GW/GCA list? I cannot JUST be architect, since you [I expect reluctantly] allowed Hills a spot for Bay Harbor, if not Shepard's Hollow.

The more it is left off your lists, the more I want to get to the UP to compare it with Greywalls.

Doug

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2008, 04:06:52 PM »
Can someone help me understand the fascination with Bay Harbor?

Take the view out of the picture and you have nothing more than a slightly above average public course -- save for a few holes on the quarry side.

Doug Ralston

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2008, 04:13:10 PM »
See!?

Doug

John Kavanaugh

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2008, 04:46:25 PM »
Can someone help me understand the fascination with Bay Harbor?

Take the view out of the picture and you have nothing more than a slightly above average public course -- save for a few holes on the quarry side.

Same reason Pacific Dunes is 1.5 points higher than Ballyneal.  Expansive views fill an empty mind.

David Neveux

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2008, 04:58:16 PM »
George,

The only thing that rubs me about that course are the Powerlines on 4 tee.  Is that supposed to be some kind of sick recreation of the the 18th tee at Augusta?? ;D ;D  Other than that I do really enjoy that course.  A few things to note.  

They changed the first to a par 5, which I think probably a good idea considering the brutal start when was as a par 4.  The second hole is really a challenging hole all the way around.  Formerly the 3 and 1 handicap to start the round.  

I wish they would remove the trees, or maybe cut them back left a little on 11, if only to open up the back of the green for some viable pin locations, as it seems they refuse to stick one back there.  I have never seen a pin back of center in 10 + rounds.  I wish they would remove the trees in the wetland / marsh on 13.  I think a longer player should have the option of an attempted carry / chance to drive the green.  I have been able to negotiate it twice and it's not really worth the risk if one is concerned about a total score.  It would still be risky without the trees and with them it's really a stupid play.  The dense tree coverage around that green also causes maintenance issue and stuggles to conform with the other greens as a result.  

As mentioned before the power lines are a joke on the 4th tee, I guess you could say that it's unique.  They should either bury them, which I think originally was their intention, or build a new tee somewhere else.  I would say this was a major error and really takes away from the course.  If I can find a picture I will post it.  For those of you trying to visualize, the wooden pole holding the line sits just off of center, it's definitely in play, and have hit several draw shots around it.  Obviously if it interferes we play it as a free re-tee but who wants that.  There are several other poles in play in the distance if a shot a.) successfully navigates the pole on a direct line right, or who plays a cut shot / fade / slice starting well left of the initial pole  and just inside the tree line left.  

The itself does tend to be very penal to a player who is having a less than average ball striking day.  Be sure to bring an exta sleeve of balls just in case!!  

Overall I do like the course a good deal.  It's not overly long, and does have some good architecturally interesting holes.  I do really enjoy the closing stretch of holes beginning with the short par 3 15, playing to a yardage of about 115 from the back tee.  A pretty easy tee shot to navigate, but a difficult green to putt from.  Anything outside of ten feet is hardly a great chance for birdy.  The short 16th par 4, plays around 280 from the back tee, with marsh land right.  The hole doglegs at about 250ish right where the green sits.  A cluster of bunkers sit on the outside of the leg, up the hill, and the green is protected short and right with bunkers.  The slope of the fairway feeds balls toward the green at / within the dogleg strectching toward the green.  It's definitely possible to drive this green with a well struck drive on a line just left of the green.  The 17th hole par 3, plays generally, 210-215 (They have a tee that stretches 240) to a large barittz style green.  After a good birdie opportunity at the 16th, this hole is a tough par.  Finally the 18th, a par 5, that starts elevated from a narrow feeling teeing ground.  Longer hitters can carry the nasty area of native vegetation that sits about 230-250 left to middle of fairway.  From there the hole opens up and then again narrows toward the green.  The green itself is benched into a the bottom of hill sitting left of it.  From about to 150 and in, the fairway / green sit on a different level from the right side of hole which falls away about from 2-10 feet increasingly toward the green.  If you can navigate the tee shot, a 5 is no more than a modest task.  But birdy and even eagle are a possibilty with a second short played up toward and even into sometimes the hill left.    

All in all a good course at an exceptional value.  As George said it is easily walkable, I think anyone (students get a steal) can get 18 holes walking for 25-30 dollars.  When the greens are good out here, it is one of the top 5-10 values in golf that I've experienced.  Now if we could only get the weather to cooperate >:( >:(

P.S.  I'm sick of the dome, architecturally speaking, it's less than impressive. :D

David Neveux

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2008, 05:09:39 PM »
Mr. Ralston,

What did you think of the par 3's at Eagle Eye?  I think they one of the better / best sets I've seen, and personally I think the 17 Sawgrass copy is my least favorite!!  Although you can't beat having a taste of that hole, if only for the fun of watching it played during the Players, right here in Lansing!!!  I have not seen Timberstone, and like you would like to / intend on making a visit soon.  It's just so hard to give up a round at Greywalls when I venture U.P. there. 

Mr. Ward

I have not seen Bay Harbor either, and would love to see it once.  Many not unlike yourself share the same sentiments of the Course, and at such a hefty rate I find it surprising that it does / rates so well amongst the other really good courses in Michigan.  For that reason, and that reason alone it spikes my curiousity and maybe this year I will give it a shot. 


Brian Cenci

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2008, 05:32:31 PM »
For the people out there who have played it, what do you think of College Fields?

Dave, you mentioned it above as being in the category of cheap, good golf; and I couldn't agree more.  I try to get in a round there whenever I'm in town (and there isn't a foot of snow on the ground!).  It's a fun, inexpensive, easy walking, quirky little golf course in good shape.  Not to mention is has some pretty interesting design features.  And when I say cheap: I think I played there last fall, walking for somewhere around $10-15 dollars...which is one of the best deals I have encountered.

I'd be interested to hear other peoples thought's on the course.


George,
      One of the problems with College Fields is that the potential vs. what was done is somewhat disheartening.  I remember playing a round with the guy who used to own the property and at one time it was going to be a DL III design, then I think they tried to court Doak, then a few others.  It has changed hands in development, ownership and such and gone into bankructcy 3 or 4 times before it even opened the course.  They tried to shove houses in before the course was even built and generally went about the development the wrong way.
     Now, onto the course...I happen to like the holes "across the road" 11 thru 17 and I like #9 as well.  Some of the holes on the front, including #4 as Dave mentioned, are borderline annoying.  For the cost, it's a great value for what you get.  But, me being a member at Walnut Hills 3 miles down the road, I don't go to CF anymore.  Other than I won 4 free rounds there at some raffle last winter, so if you want to roll out there with Dave and I beginning of the year, lets hit it up.  It certainly better than that damn dome...I'm tired of peppering balls 100 yards of matts.

-Brian

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2008, 05:50:15 PM »
Jim,

I think maybe this summer we should get back out there, wait did I just hear someone press??

Mr. JohnH,

Eagle Eye is a must play, and as Brian and I live 5 miles from the course would be happy to meet anyone from GCA interested in a game!!

Mr. Ward,

I honestly forgot to get out to the Mines last year and it is very high on my list of places to see once the F'in SNOW MELTS >:( ;D.  The real question  is how will this course stack up to the likes of Kingsly and Greywalls??  I realize that it is a public venture, but those are the only other Mike Devries designs I have played (unless you count Pilgrims Run, but I can't get a straight answer on who / how it was formally designed.)

Mr. Arble,

High Pointe and Angels may be low key in terms of not being a resort style course per se, the game of golf you'll find is anything but low key!!  It's true that both sit on the cheaper end of the public golf spectrum here in Michigan.  These two courses symbolize whats both right and good about premier public access golf.  Great golf at an affordable price, hopefully that will help pull both of these courses through our statewide economic difficulties Jim mentioned earlier.  Other courses here in East Lansing which I think fit that mold as well are the aforementioned Eagle Eye, and College Fields.  It seems to me that one can get a game at the Mines in Grand Rapids for something like 35 USD. 

David

I do tend to go for very good, cheapish golf rather than great expensive, golf.

The pix I have seen of Eagle Eye don't entice me to visit very much.  What is about the course which attracts you?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfweek's Most/Least List and Best public in Mich.
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2008, 09:46:33 PM »
Matt -

On my one visit to Michigan I only played The Mines, so I can't offer  comparisons to other courses on the list or to Mike's other courses.  Also, I know that you'd probably prefer more concrete details in a review than I'm about to offer, but I thought I'd share this anyway:

To me, The Mines offers a working-man's education in golf course design. Without pretence or self-consciousness, the course provides examples of wonderful routing (e.g. shared fairways, a valley with 3 Par 3s all played in/around it); a beautifully varied set of greens; an overall aesthetic (including bunkers and teeing grounds) that seems unforced, and in keeping with the nature of the site; a fine mix of short and long Par 4s; and examples of visual deception and classic strategic features like diagonal ridges in the fairways.

I'd had a long layoff from playing when I played The Mines, and from the easy tees I scored better than I thought I would (in the pouring rain, but I was playing 'smart' - at least by my standards). But from stopping at various points during my round to imagine playing from the back tees, I thought it'd be an exponentially tougher test from back there -- which I think is the way it should be. 

As I say, Matt, I don't think The Mines is a golf course that calls a great deal of attention to itself; it doesn't 'shout out' any particular style of design philosophy (at least to me), unless that style is "fit the course to the land".  It just flat-out works as a lovely and very, very good golf course.  In a strange way, I think even its very reasonable green fees (I pay 3 times as much for a round in Toronto for half as much golf course) might be hurting it in the rankings, as if the very modest fees are a measure of the course and not the marketplace. 

I wish I could give you more hole by hole details, Matt, but I was kind of immersed in my round there in a different way that day.  It certainly makes me want to see Mike Devries' other courses, which I take are more highly regarded than The Mines. What I saw there at The Mines was the work of an excellent golf course architect, and one who shares my tastes.

Peter

Edit - Jim's post below says it very well.  It also reminded me of the feeling of spaciousness/width that I got at The Mines (and a feeling that the shots weren't so prescribed).  And if memory serves, I think you go the first 2 or 3 holes without seeing a bunker of any kind, which is very pleasing to me.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 09:57:41 PM by Peter Pallotta »

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