[Dean Stokes]

I believe the answer is the same as the answer to your original question:  Supply & demand.

Many filthy rich men desire to associate strictly with people like them.  
How do they ensure that?  
175k memberships.  

It's obvious to me they are paying for the camaraderie, not for the quality of the golf course.  

Jason, I don't think you have an understanding of the dynamic of membership at clubs today.

You'll be surprised to know that many "great" clubs have fairly low entry fees.

It's not about the money, it's about the prospective member.

Those clubs with high entry fees tend to be newer clubs where the cost of land and development were high and the owner/s are trying to recoup their investment.

When Mike Pascucci writes a check for $ 46,000,000 just for the land and millions more for the course and facilities, should he give away memberships in the name of charity ?  Should he let anyone who shows up play his course ?  At the expense of the members who paid for that privilege ?

When Paul Fireman spends $ 120,000,000 of his own money developing his course and facilities should he allow strangers to walk on at their leisure and play at nominal green fees ? [/color]

Likewise if Augusta offered tee times to anyone wiling to pay $500, the members wouldn't have what they have and pay dearly to maintain.  

Agreed.[/color]

Mike Keiser and the owners of Pebble, Pinehurst, etc, have proven what people will pay to play, and more importantly how many people are willing to pay it.

Those are RESORT courses, not PRIVATE clubs, and as such, there are different dynamics in play.[/color]

I think there are more such people here in the US than in Europe, even Great Britain.  Hence the market in the UK and here are markedly different.

With the DOLLAR where it is, I think you'll find just the reverse these days.[/color]

Again look at your cup as half full -- you can play a bunch of great courses in the UK with a letter to the secretary.  

It's more of a tax and public policy issue, irrespective of how you look at the cup..[/color]

Pat, I fully understand the financial outlay and need to recoup at a place such as Sebonack. You also get a course that is voted #1 private club in the country that nobody without $1 mill. to spare can see. Most of the year it will be a ghost town. What's the point in that? Why not allow a few visitors tee times at unpopular times of the day?

[John Kavanaugh]

It's pretty simple if not the answer you'd like, Dean.

In the UK they drive on the left, in the US we drive on the right.

In the UK it's mostly typical for private clubs of all kinds to offer some limited tee times to visitors in order to earn additional income for the club.  This is even true of the most exclusive clubs such as Murfield or Sunningdale.

In the US there is very little unaccompanied visitor play at high end private clubs.

As somebody said, two countries divided by a common language.  It's just a matter of customs.

Do you prefer the UK model?  Of course!  But that won't change the US model.

Bill,

Why deter the guy when even you have played NGLA?

[Mike Sweeney]

Why not allow a few visitors tee times at unpopular times of the day?

The owner does, it just isn't advertised, and it just hasn't been me or you!

[Dean Stokes]

Dean Stokes,

You should be aware that most private clubs forbid their own members from using the club's roster for solicitations.   Political, charitable or any other type.

The USGA recently altered their policy on access to handicap information.

The climate, especially the legal climate is very different in the U.S.

Do you think that members of a well to do or highly visible clubs would want the general public to know they're members, complete with their addresses and phone numbers ?

Do you think that members with young children would want their personal info made available at the stroke of a key.

There are too many deranged and criminal elements lurking about.

Privacy is a highly valued commodity in the U.S. and neither you nor the public has any right to access privileged information.

Now we're getting somewhere I'm now starting to learn the reasons for the differing policies in different countries. Great. I hadn't learnt anything today and it's getting late. Thankyou. I may write to Shinny later this year - that's the big one for me.

[Mike Sweeney]

I may write to Shinny later this year - that's the big one for me.

Dean,

God forbid you start a little lower Dean! What is Shinnecock these days, #2? Why not go for the Big Enchilada in Augusta! 

This has been fun, but now I am going to bed with my fantasy Super Model wife!

[Dean Stokes]

I may write to Shinny later this year - that's the big one for me.

Dean,

God forbid you start a little lower Dean! What is Shinnecock these days, #2? Why not go for the Big Enchilada in Augusta! 

This has been fun, but now I am going to bed with my fantasy Super Model wife!

Go gentle Shinny is the big enchilada for me Mike.

[Bill_McBride]

It's pretty simple if not the answer you'd like, Dean.

In the UK they drive on the left, in the US we drive on the right.

In the UK it's mostly typical for private clubs of all kinds to offer some limited tee times to visitors in order to earn additional income for the club.  This is even true of the most exclusive clubs such as Murfield or Sunningdale.

In the US there is very little unaccompanied visitor play at high end private clubs.

As somebody said, two countries divided by a common language.  It's just a matter of customs.

Do you prefer the UK model?  Of course!  But that won't change the US model.

Bill,

Why deter the guy when even you have played NGLA?

Aha!  The difference between the US and UK models is you can routinely play top private clubs as an UNACCOMPANIED visitor.

At NGLA I was an ACCOMPANIED guest.

Therein lies the difference between the two systems.  Is this really too difficult for you to grasp?  What happens when Mr. X calls up the golf shop at Victoria National, or perhaps writes to the General Manager (in lieu of the UK secretary)?  Do they tell him when UNACCOMPANIED visitors can play and for how much?  Or they tell him to buzz off?

[John Moore II]

I am sure this has been said on here before, but part of me thinks that a PRIVATE club is just that, private. No outside play without a member being present to sponsor you or at least a member writing a formal letter. Any other club that allows outside play for a fee on certain times (outside of a tournament) is not really private, just some hybrid club. I agree with many of the posts on here, would Augusta or Cypress Point really be what they are to the members and even outsiders if anyone could just walk up and hand out some cash and play? Bandon and Pinehurst and great courses, but are they really great clubs? Thats the key, these private layouts are clubs, not so much courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's pretty simple if not the answer you'd like, Dean.

In the UK they drive on the left, in the US we drive on the right.

In the UK it's mostly typical for private clubs of all kinds to offer some limited tee times to visitors in order to earn additional income for the club.  This is even true of the most exclusive clubs such as Murfield or Sunningdale.

In the US there is very little unaccompanied visitor play at high end private clubs.

As somebody said, two countries divided by a common language.  It's just a matter of customs.

Do you prefer the UK model?  Of course!  But that won't change the US model.

Bill,

Why deter the guy when even you have played NGLA?

Aha!  The difference between the US and UK models is you can routinely play top private clubs as an UNACCOMPANIED visitor.

At NGLA I was an ACCOMPANIED guest.

Therein lies the difference between the two systems.  Is this really too difficult for you to grasp?  What happens when Mr. X calls up the golf shop at Victoria National, or perhaps writes to the General Manager (in lieu of the UK secretary)?  Do they tell him when UNACCOMPANIED visitors can play and for how much?  Or they tell him to buzz off?

Bill, this is Southern Indiana.  If someone takes the time to write a letter we will find a member to host them...I guarantee.  We don't tell people to buzz off.

[Bill_McBride]

That may be true in Southern Indiana.   What about Shinnecock, NLGA, Pine Valley, Seminole, Cypress Point, etc etc?  I believe those are the level of courses Dean was wondering about.  His specific interest is Shinnecock.

[John Moore II]

JK-Thats great that you'll find a member to host someone from outside that wants to play. However, I assure you that many clubs will not. I called an esteemed club in Atlanta (I won't say which one) and spoke with the head pro about potentially playing (I'm a PGA Member) and he pretty much told me to pound off. It was far more wordy than that, but I was still told that without a member sponsoring me I was out of luck and it was against their policy to ask a member to sponsor me. If you are not like that, wonderful, but many are.

[Jason Connor]

 

Jason, I don't think you have an understanding of the dynamic of membership at clubs today.

You'll be surprised to know that many "great" clubs have fairly low entry fees.

It's not about the money, it's about the prospective member.

Those clubs with high entry fees tend to be newer clubs where the cost of land and development were high and the owner/s are trying to recoup their investment.

I understand all of this.  I recently moved to Florida and contacted Sugarloaf, their initiation is quite reasonable, as is Bay Hill's. 

And I understand that often time's we're paying for real estate with such fees.  But other times steep prices are just that.  When I lived outside Cleveland I lived beside a new Nicklaus course that was on very cheap land.  Jim Thome owned a house there.  The 60k initiation was, in my uneducated opinion, merely a price tag to label the course exclusive and keep out even the upper middle class riff raff like myself (I'm not bitter, I'm just making a point, that's their right to make that business decision.  I've never played a Nicklaus course I'd want to join, anyway). 

Those are RESORT courses, not PRIVATE clubs, and as such, there are different dynamics in play.[/color]

My point in naming resorts was that take a world class golf course [even a remote one like Bandon] and people will pay top dollar and go way out of their way to play it.  Meaning if Shinnecock and Augusta posted open tee times on their websites, they'd be booked through 2050.  So the vast demand to play these courses proves my point as to why many top private clubs don't (can't) open play to just anyone.

[Dean Stokes]

That may be true in Southern Indiana.   What about Shinnecock, NLGA, Pine Valley, Seminole, Cypress Point, etc etc?  I believe those are the level of courses Dean was wondering about.  His specific interest is Shinnecock.

Shinnecock is top of the list but there are many Bill!

I'm just trying to work out why so many of us are grateful for the fact we can go to Ireland and play probably one of the best courses in the world, Ballybunion as a visitor, unaccompanied -  definitely a private club, but those visitors rules are not reciprocated at the same level clubs here?

[John Kavanaugh]

That may be true in Southern Indiana.   What about Shinnecock, NLGA, Pine Valley, Seminole, Cypress Point, etc etc?  I believe those are the level of courses Dean was wondering about.  His specific interest is Shinnecock.

Bill,

I haven't met Dean and he does come off a little needy and whiny in my book but why do you think a couple of guys like us can play those courses and Dean can't.

Aren't you a little ashamed to claim that American courses are selfish when they have been so open to you?

[Bill_McBride]

That may be true in Southern Indiana.   What about Shinnecock, NLGA, Pine Valley, Seminole, Cypress Point, etc etc?  I believe those are the level of courses Dean was wondering about.  His specific interest is Shinnecock.

Bill,

I haven't met Dean and he does come off a little needy and whiny in my book but why do you think a couple of guys like us can play those courses and Dean can't.

Aren't you a little ashamed to claim that American courses are selfish when they have been so open to you?

It hasn't been the clubs that have been open to me, it's been individual members who have invited me.  There's a huge difference. 

Enough said, off to bed.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK-Thats great that you'll find a member to host someone from outside that wants to play. However, I assure you that many clubs will not. I called an esteemed club in Atlanta (I won't say which one) and spoke with the head pro about potentially playing (I'm a PGA Member) and he pretty much told me to pound off. It was far more wordy than that, but I was still told that without a member sponsoring me I was out of luck and it was against their policy to ask a member to sponsor me. If you are not like that, wonderful, but many are.

Your first mistake was using the phone.  Why not do some research and write the pro a letter informing him of some history of his club that he may not have known.  Make yourself interesting.

[Jason Connor]

I'm just trying to work out why so many of us are grateful for the fact we can go to Ireland and play probably one of the best courses in the world, Ballybunion as a visitor, unaccompanied -  definitely a private club, but those visitors rules are not reciprocated at the same level clubs here?

Again I go with supply and demand.  World class courses here tend to fill up due to the number of golfers vs. the number of courses.

Apparently in Ireland that's less true, there are fewer golfers with high disposable income compared to the number of courses.  Hence your ability to get on there.

As with most thing, the free market situation dictates price and supply.

[John Kavanaugh]

That may be true in Southern Indiana.   What about Shinnecock, NLGA, Pine Valley, Seminole, Cypress Point, etc etc?  I believe those are the level of courses Dean was wondering about.  His specific interest is Shinnecock.

Bill,

I haven't met Dean and he does come off a little needy and whiny in my book but why do you think a couple of guys like us can play those courses and Dean can't.

Aren't you a little ashamed to claim that American courses are selfish when they have been so open to you?

It hasn't been the clubs that have been open to me, it's been individual members who have invited me.  There's a huge difference. 

Enough said, off to bed.

The members are the club at private courses.

[Bob_Huntley]

The members of private equity clubs own the course.  It is true that many clubs that would be considered highly private do allow non-member play at a premium price.  Also, I think many would be surprised at the clubs that are accomodating if your pro calls on your behalf.  If the members own the club, then they can place any restriction on play they wish.  I see no issue.

Michael,

How true. It all comes down to the Golden Rule. he that has the gold, rules.

Bob

[Jason Connor]

And my funny snobby club moment.

When I was about 14 I was getting in to golf.  Got the World Atlas and read it over and over.

So I wrote to  a number of top clubs, explained I was 14 and learning about the great golf courses of the world, and asked politely for a scorecard.

Most clubs graciously mailed me a card, to which I responded with thank you letters.  Augusta even mailed me a history book on the Masters, a pairing sheet from Sunday of that year's Masters, and scorecards that the members used and the official Master's scorecard!  All for the price of my stamp.

The Pine Valley secretary, on the other hand, wrote back on club stationary and explained that unless I was a member, to please not contact them.  It'd have been faster to mail me the scorecard!

I still have that letter.  I figured one day, maybe I'd frame it overtop the scorecard from the round I'll play there.

These days I just don't care if I ever play there or not.  I relish the chances I've had to play places like Oakmont.  But I don't go out of my way to seek invitations. It's fascinating to walk in Hogan's footsteps.  But it is just as fascinating to me to play get on Black twice in two days just 6 weeks after the 2002 Open, or to play in my league at my club this Saturday morning with the guys.

[John Moore II]

JK-How I contacted the pro was not the point, my point was that, at many clubs, no matter who you are or how you contact them, they simply will not let you on without a member sponsoring and playing with you.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK-How I contacted the pro was not the point, my point was that, at many clubs, no matter who you are or how you contact them, they simply will not let you on without a member sponsoring and playing with you.

J,

You lost me when you said "no matter who you are or how you contact them".  It has been my experience that with patience the clubs end up finding you.

[John Moore II]

JK-I was attempting to say that with the ultra private clubs, whether you contact them by phone, letter, email, or any other form of communication, they simply will say no. If you contact the pro or a Board member that is.

BTW--Any gaps in your weekend foursome at Victoria this summer? I'd be more than happy to fill in.

[Jeff Goldman]

Dean Stokes,


The tax laws in the U.S. also come into play.
Clubs are limited in the amount of outside revenue they can receive.
Should they exceed that threshold, they'd lose their tax exempt status, which again, has onerous consequences.

When you combine these two factors you can understand how guest policies evolved differently in the U.S.

Patrick, it can be more of a problem than even staying below the "outside income" threshold.  If you have visitor tee times or welcome the public in an overt way, you could jeopardize your tax exempt status regardless of the amount of income you earn from the outside activity, which would be really bad for many clubs.  Bad as in a non-exempt club can basically kiss 35% of its initiation fees goodbye, and it's easy to end up with a lot of taxable income because of the way expenses are accounted for.  A non-exempt club earning, say, $500,000 per year in initiation income would have to have a big pile of nonmember play to make up the $175,000 that goes to the IRS (even aside from other tax liability).  1000 rounds at $175 per, assuming you could get it.  Thus, outside play can be a money loser once the tax implications are taken into account.

So Dean, it is hard to see why club members should subsidize outside play.

[Andrew Summerell]

I'm telling you that if someone lives in Australia and flys to this country to study the architecture of a course they have close to a 100% chance of success. 

Dean,

Well, I’m from Australia & have played quite a few of the extremely private courses in America, even some of the ones already mentioned. Many of the rounds were due to knowing a member, but some of them were only because I wrote a letter.

Simply speaking, the letter would state who I am & where I come from (including a covering letter from my club), the reasons why I wanted to play their course (which were generally architectural) & that I understand that they are a private club, so I would appreciate any tee time they could accommodate me.

On all but two occasions they grouped me with a member. The members were always more than happy to share with me their knowledge of the course & club, especially when they could see my interest in the architecture & history. Most members of these clubs know what they have & are extremely proud of their club & course.

That has been my experience as an overseas unaccompanied guest. I am not sure whether it will help you living in America.

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