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Patrick_Mucci

Graphed Architectural plans
« on: February 27, 2008, 04:58:42 PM »
Were Flynn and Ross the only architects to use graph paper for the their designs and/or field notes ?

Who would be credited for first using this method ?

Who else used it ?

Who was the last architect to use it ?

Is it a highly efficient method for presenting designs to owner/developers ?

« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 05:00:31 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2008, 05:09:15 PM »
 I think it's still widely practiced.  PAD - Pencil Aided Design (Ristola)
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Trey Kemp

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Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2008, 05:16:54 PM »
I know that Donald Ross use the same method.
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Kyle Harris

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2008, 05:37:10 PM »
Gil Hanse used them in the master plan for Rolling Green.

Willie Park used a similar model as Ross's.

John Moore II

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2008, 10:29:54 PM »
I would say that is still a practiced method of design. I know the person who redesigned Pine Needles used them, some of the works are posted around Needles. And Strantz used watercolors when he was designing. So these are still used.

Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2008, 11:33:30 PM »
I've always thought the graph paper provided an excellent sense of scale.  Almost all of my "fun" drawings have been on graph paper.  It's a medium that I'm sure will continue to be utilized. 

On a somewhat similar note, Ian Andrew just posted a thread re: CAD plans on his site.

Lester George

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Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2008, 01:11:44 AM »
I used them on my first solo golf course, The Colonial in Williamsburg, VA

Lester

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2008, 01:59:44 AM »
I think it's still widely practiced.  PAD - Pencil Aided Design (Ristola)

On a somewhat similar note, Ian Andrew just posted a thread re: CAD plans on his site.

CAD = crayon aided design? ::)

Ian Andrew

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2008, 08:31:56 AM »
When I say this I'm not stating fact - just my opinion - I think Travis got the idea from Ross - whom was a good close friend.


wsmorrison

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2008, 09:12:07 AM »
Here is an example of Flynn's drawing on graph paper with construction instructions.  This is Flynn's redesign of the 18th at the original Noble, PA site of Huntingdon Valley CC and led to his hiring several years later to design their new course on the present site.



Here is a green detail, drawn in exact scale to be built as drawn.  This drawing, for the 2nd green at Columbia Country Club in Washington, DC was prepared with India ink on linen. 


BCrosby

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Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2008, 10:44:47 AM »
The detail and beauty of Flynn's drawings never cease to amaze me.

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2008, 10:48:01 AM »
The detail and beauty of Flynn's drawings never cease to amaze me.

Bob

Bob,

Wayne and I were talking the other day that Flynn really didn't come by it so naturally.   Some of his first drawings, such as those that were published for the 1916 US Amateur, were not nearly as sophisicated or artistic.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2008, 10:59:35 AM »
These handwritten drawings possess a beauty that is unattainable with a computer.  I believe it's the minor imperfections that give the drawings their life and beauty.  I have always been fascinated by graphic artistry, and these are as nice as I've seen.  My dad used to draw diagrams like this for his model railroad designs, and I picked up the bug somewhere.  Love this stuff.   Thanks for sharing, Wayne.

Ray Richard

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2008, 11:06:51 AM »
Field supers and shapers love grid lined plans-they can scale off a line and get an orientation point. Its great for locating features.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2008, 03:32:20 PM »
I still don't know how you create a beautiful 3-D surface by way of a 2-D plan.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 03:47:12 PM »
Tom -

They worked because the guys with the money only thought in 2-D, even after the architects slipped in the 3-D stuff...

Just an uninformed guess of course

Peter

Edit - but seriously, from what I've read on this site about how well Flynn used natural contours (especially for fairways), it makes him very interesting to me, and makes his lovely 2-D drawings all the more interesting in terms of understanding the overall design process

   
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 04:39:58 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2008, 10:06:59 PM »
Wayno,

Flynn's drawings seem incredibly detailed.

Did he produce these detailed graphic plans for every course, every hole ?

In your study of his work, do the length, proximity and angle of the lines have a code ?

David Stamm

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Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2008, 10:10:46 PM »
The detail and beauty of Flynn's drawings never cease to amaze me.

Bob

You said it, Bob. Such clear, concise detail.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 10:16:36 PM »
Pat, all the drawings in Thomas' book were done by Bell and they are all graphed.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2008, 10:32:34 PM »
David and Wayno,

Did any of the architects ever produce a global graph that contained all of the holes on the entire course ?

Or, are these graphed drawing solely on a hole by hole basis ?

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2008, 10:49:14 PM »
David and Wayno,

Did any of the architects ever produce a global graph that contained all of the holes on the entire course ?

Or, are these graphed drawing solely on a hole by hole basis ?

Pat, I've never seen Bell's original drawings. Sadly when the son, WF Bell, died, the family cleaned out the design office and threw out all the originals. :'(

As for the book, most are hole by hole. There is one of the irrigation of Bayside (NLE) as well as the par 3 course found in the very back of the book. They are both graphed. There are also cut away (side) views of holes.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2008, 08:58:33 AM »
Patrick:

To the best of my memory, I've never seen the layout of a whole course on graph paper -- just individual pages for each hole or each green.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2008, 09:27:28 AM »
My guess is that the graph paper was an easy and cheap way for builders of that era to be able to translate a drawing to the site.  After all, some designers like Ross did plans without being there to supervise the implimentation. 

Once the centerline was established, all that was needed was a tape and a right-angled hand prizm - I still have an old one I use in the field.  Back them contractors didn't have easy access to surveying equipment - it was rather expensive and took someone with skill to use it 

Today, a surveyor can input a digital design into a COGO (coordinate geometry) program, put that data into a GPS and layout an entire golf hole in a fraction of the time it would have taken even 15 yrs ago and be able to do it by himself.

The other thing the graph paper was good for was it allowed for rough areas to be calculated from the irregular shapes of greens, bunkers, fairways for ordering materials and making sure the builder didn't short the owner.

Although they seem to be despised on this site, computers are a great tool that have eliminated alot of disagreements on quantity estimates between archies and contractors.

And if I want to, I can replicate those drawings using CAD and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  It would just take alot longer.

Coasting is a downhill process

wsmorrison

Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2008, 08:14:26 AM »
Pat,

Flynn never did lay out his routing maps within a grid.  However, if you overlaid his individual hole drawings on grids, they fit precisely.  If you'll notice, the grid with the green drawings shows the line of play, that is always perfectly lined up with the orientation of the green in the large grid field.

Tim makes an excellent point about the use of grids to determine area and cost computations.  Flynn was highly regarded for his ability to accurately predict the amount of money just about anything on the job would cost in terms of time, amount of materials and money.  Some clients appreciated this aspect of his design and build model.  The Rockefellers were notable fans of Flynn's ability to provide accurate estimates. 

Spending a great deal of time on site and designing on paper and redesigning on paper with an experienced crew and foremen that understood how to translate 2D into 3D according to the designer's wishes was important.  Of course outlines could easily be staked off the 2D drawings, but even his close relationship with his construction crews and accurate detailed drawings would not be able to define the finished product in 3D.  The stakes would show the depth and height of features were necessary.  Sometimes Flynn would describe the details of features with drawings, especially earlier in his career if we consider the sample of archival materials.

7th green at Town and Country (became Woodmont) near Washington, DC, 1921--NLE.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Graphed Architectural plans
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2008, 05:23:00 PM »
Wayne:

I've been very good at keeping my courses on budget, despite drawing no greens plans at all.  If you just have a good idea of what your average green size is going to be, you can easily calculate the quantities of materials you'll need; then add in a bit for waste, and you're going to be close.

Not to knock Flynn's plans, they're beautiful, but calculating each green to the nearest 100 sq ft is not that much more efficient than building them to an average of 5,500.  And, I'd rather be able to adjust one in the field without worrying about going over budget because I calculated the other 17 so precisely.

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