[Adam Russell]

I thought of this a while back...everyone has a list of greatest courses, but what courses that no longer exist would be the Pine Valleys and Cypress Points if they were alive present-day??? I don't know enough NLE tracks to comment, but I'd love to see some lists. Discuss and banter...

[Gerry B]

Without having played any of them  - according to various articles etc would have to consider:

The Lido  - has to be a lock for # 1 spot

Mill Road Farm

Timber Point

[Joe Bausch]

Augusta National. 

[wsmorrison]

Gerry,

Lido wouldn't be my #1   

I like that you included Mill Road Farm.  I'd include Boca Raton South on such a list.  It is my personal favorite NLE and would be one of the finest courses in America if it wasn't taken over by the Navy in WWII. 

Here is an example of a hole from Boca Raton South



Opa Locka was a fascinating design as well, completely unknown outside a handful of us including Tom Paul, Craig Disher and myself.  Here is an example of a hole from Opa Locka

[Allan Long]

Since the list is long, and the majority of great NLE courses didn't exist in my lifetime, the two that I would have liked to have seen the most are Royal Palms in California and Lido in New York.


For anyone who likes this topic, I would highly recommend the books Missing Links and Lost Links. They are both great reads.

[David Stamm]

Since the list is long, and the majority of great NLE courses didn't exist in my lifetime, I will list the two that I would have liked to have seen on both coasts from research and readings on the subject.

West Coast - Royal Palms
East Coast  - Lido

For anyone who likes this topic, I would highly recommend the books Missing Links and Lost Links. They are both great reads.

Allan is right, Wexler's books cover this pretty well. And I love Allan's West Coast pick. Some of mine would also be:

Timber Point
Olympic's Ocean course (original)
Lake Narconian
Sharp Park (pre-flood)
Lido
Fox Hills
El Caballero
Bayside
La Cumbre (original)
Ojai (original)

[Don_Mahaffey]

Can someone tell me more about Royal Palms?

[Adam Russell]

I read the interview on here from 2000 from Daniel Wexler... any more great NLE courses like Wayne Morrison's Opa Locka that didn't make a book???

[David Stamm]

Can someone tell me more about Royal Palms?

Don, Royal Palms is a real mystery course. There is only this picture, the one form GT's book as seen below, that is known to exist of it. It was on the Palos Verdes peninsula near Bell's other course there, Palos Verdes Golf Club. It was 6300 yds, par 70. It is thought to be one of Bells' best, if not the best.

[Allan Long]

David,

Great call on Fox Hills. It would be on the short list for me as well. It sure beats what's there today (Fox Hills Mall).

The thing that really intrigues me about Royal Palms is the mystery. Outside of that one photo almost no information exists about the course or why it closed. If you have ever driven by the piece of land where the course was thought to be, you could only imagine what a great property it would have been. No doubt the Pacific would have been in view throughout the entire course adding to its spectacular setting.

So many Bell and Thomas that NLE in So. Cal. that would have been fun to see.....

[Ian Andrew]

Canada's entry into this would be:

Jericho Golf & Country Club

The course featured a seven seaside holes looking out onto English Bay, and 11 holes cut through tree lined rolling terrain, all with dramatic views of Vancouver and Vancouver Island. The upper holes were described to have such drama that very few traps were required, and the seaside holes were rough and raw with open areas of hazard. The setting and mixture of holes made up what could be arguably the biggest loss in Canadian Golf.

It disappeared to become a naval base in 1942, likely because it was in an excellent location, and it offered the land required without expropriating houses.

Every BC course including the “new” Capilano Golf & Country Club were all compared to how they stacked up against Jericho. The architecture likely did not live up to Thompson, Alison or Park, but the setting was far better than almost any course in Canada.

The course would definitely make the top 25 list for Canada, and may have been even higher. The course would have looked and played like Capilano in the upper holes and had a similar feel to the Oceanside holes at Victoria Golf Club.

[Michael Christensen]

Foulpointe?  Did this course actually exist?  Or was it a joke..

[Allan Long]

Ian,

Do you know who designed Jericho?

[Craig Disher]

If both courses were around today, I believe Boca Raton S would be generally viewed as one of the country's top 5. I'm not so sure about the Lido. What is sad about BRS is that it was just abandoned. The club continued to function after WWII but for some reason the owners walked away from the course. There was no real estate pressure on the property and after the war the course could have been reopened. The Navy never used it for anything - very different from the Lido which was turned into a Naval training site.

I have  to show a little regional bias here and insist that the greatest course ever built in the DC area was Ross's NLE Indian Spring.

Wayne - we're talking about NLEs here. I'm still waiting for some evidence that Opa Locka was ever built.    Brilliant design though.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The Old Prince George's CC outside DC was a great Ross course.  By all accounts it may have been the best course in town.

[Bill_McBride]

Foulpointe?  Did this course actually exist?  Or was it a joke..

Only Forrest Richardson, the club's archivist, knows for sure. 

[Gerry B]

Ian:

Forgot about that NLE from my hometown -  that is an expensive piece of land in today's world

[Patrick Kiser]

I'm pretty sure there are a couple of threads like this one from the past.

I'll second David's vote on Sharpe Park.

Another one I really would have liked to have played is La Cumbre from the Captain.

Ojai's along those lines as well, eventhough it's "technically" still there.

[Sean_A]

I can't possibly know if these were great courses or not, but old literature seems to support it.

Princes
Addington New

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

The pre-Colt "Long Course" at Royal Portrush must have been stunning.  It was 6608 yards, "bogey" 81 in 1909, and while probably not as refined as the current Dunluce Course, it must have been incredible fun to play, even for the non-masochist.  A sinppet from the Club history to whet the appetite:

"The twelfth hole was a well known as Calamity Corner is to-day.  The tee shot was blind over a very high hill with a bunker on the face of it.  Once over the hill all you could see was a large bunker about 150 yards long with railway sleepers along the back.  Your second shot was also blind, over this bunker on to what is now the eleventh Green on the Valley.  A rather frightening hole but one which gave great satisfaction when you got your four!"

I have pictures......

Another I will nominate is the old Dornoch 9-hole Struie course, c. 1981.  What a piece of work was that....

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne - we're talking about NLEs here. I'm still waiting for some evidence that Opa Locka was ever built.  Brilliant design though."

You're right, Craig.  Your photographic evidence is suggestive that construction began but not conclusive that it was completed.  It looks like the remnants of a couple of fairways can be seen near the canal and there is what appears to be a green in your photo. 

[JMorgan]

Gerry,

Lido wouldn't be my #1   

I like that you included Mill Road Farm.  I'd include Boca Raton South on such a list.  It is my personal favorite NLE and would be one of the finest courses in America if it wasn't taken over by the Navy in WWII. 

Here is an example of a hole from Boca Raton South



Opa Locka was a fascinating design as well, completely unknown outside a handful of us including Tom Paul, Craig Disher and myself.  Here is an example of a hole from Opa Locka

Wayne, you should do one of those "In My Opinions" on these two courses.  I for one would love to see more drawings and photos of Boca Raton South and what was at least planned for Opa Locka.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian,

Do you know who designed Jericho?

J.M. Dalgleish and Alex Duthie - first 6 in 1890's - full 18 in 1923 - disappeared in 1942

[David Druzisky]

Ian,

Canada has a Navy? Or was that some invading Navy?

I agree with all the Thomas courses.  It is such a shame we have so little left of the short list of work he did.  I get goose bumps when I see a couple of the holes at LaCumbre from the original and imagine what it was like in its original form.

As far as Royal Palms goes, when I was working on Palos Verdes a while back we came across an old plan of the course and the surrounding development that was done by Olmstead (Olmstead Brothers).  Maybe that would be an angle to try and find something that refrences Royal Palms.

[wsmorrison]

OK, I will do an "In My Opinion" review of Boca Raton South.  I'd ask Craig Disher to help me since the photographs are his and he's helped Tom and I quite a lot in getting the Flynn book together.  By the way, Tom Paul is now editing the book so we can expect it sometime around Christmas 2023.

Here are some additional designs from Opa Locka (Florida)

The short 13th.  Note the wide fairways, the way the tee boxes point to the outside of the dogleg and how the green falls away from the golfer.  It may be that the best approach was to play to the shorter right side of the fairway.  This looks to be a thinking man's golf hole.



The long par 3 16th.  Note the best line of play is over the bunker and flanking mounds over the right side.  The topline of the bunker was meant to be raised hiding at least a portion of the landing area beyond.  Notice how there is a diagonal crown to the green with the left portion sloped to the back of the green and the right portion sloped towards the front.



The demanding 18th.  This was one long finishing par 4 in 1926.  The man-made canal runs along the entire left side of the fairway.  The fairway (50+ yards wide) canted right to left towards the canal.  Several diagonal ridges with smallish bunkers at one end would deflect shots in various ways, both good and bad.  There was plenty of room to land the ball beyond the final ridge and run the ball onto the green.  Mounds frame the rear of the green, ideal spots for a gallery to watch the final hole.

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