[Randy Thompson]

Can anybody share me their experiences with bunker edges on links courses that are subject to wind and as a result part of the edges dry out and when golfers enter and machinery enter,(pure sand mediium) the edges break and the bunker grows and grows. My question is what mix of grasses has the best results and resist these type of conditions. The course is located in a perfect micro climate for cool season grasses. The original grass established around these bunkers is a 100% ryegrass mix. I suspect anything would do better the rye, for instant anything in the bluegrasses family and surely the fescues and fine fescues. Anybody have experience with this problem in the past and what specific grass mixes gave better results. Any shared information would be appreciated...Thanks!

[Jon Wiggett]

Randy,

this is a common problem. Ideally the turf should be well establish before you cut the edge as it is often very difficult to get even sod to take afterwards. Repairs should be done in the autumn or winter not summer to aid establishment. It is usually a problem of dryness in the root zone and certainly fine fescue is well suited for this situation once established.

One possible way I have tried with good success was to cut sod with a spade and take a good 10" to 12" of root mass with it. It takes alot more work to lay but is not as susceptible to drying out. Also, using a growth regulator seems to improve the sward considerably.

Hope this helps,

Jon

[Randy Thompson]

thanks jon, any specific varieties of fine fescues?

[RJ_Daley]

Randy, are you talking about someplace in Chile?  I can't give you any real turf advise, sorry.   But, since you work down in S.A. a great deal, I was just wondering where the course is.

[Randy Thompson]

RJ- yes it is in chile
Kelly- After I wrote the thread, I thought to myself, should of explained this is not a Fazio course (in fact it´s a Moran-Thompson) and therefore budget is limited because I am sure somebody is going to recommend small heads, seperate irrigation system. Need to start a nursery pronto and address this problem quickly. Maybe somebody from Doak´s group will respond because I am sure they have encountered the problem and addressed it without having to go through eloborate irrigation redesign. Anything got to have  better resistance then a rye mix and especially in relation to the possibility of establishing deeper roots. As you know there are no frost here and I even considered putting a Bermuda hybrid but we really only have about seven weeks of ideal Bermuda weather but I beleive it could still form a decent root system in this cool season enviroment and might look neat letting it get a little stringy but I want to get some other opinions. Love ya, miss ya but my god I don´t miss our political discussions!!! I mean, if the current Bush administration told you Santa is the real thing, you would be cleaning your chimney tonight! Besos!

[RJ_Daley]

Randy, is using the chunking and revetting style an option?  Of course the following is a great discussion for bunker technique, and focuses on the differences in the chunking for the outlying areas, and the tight mow blending of revetting and chunking to solve the crumbling and spreading aspects of the bunkers where there is much entry and exit stress from golfers (if you can get high speed internet there to watch the clip) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck8q8MsF1e8

Randy, could you tell us the specific location in Chile so we can google or Live terra map search the property.  Chile has good coverage.  Is there a hearty native grasses area on or around the property where you can harvest big 10"-12" thick chunks with well established deep roots to line bunkers according to the video style?

[Jon Wiggett]

Randy,

fine fescue will be just fine despite what KBM says. I don't know what they do in the northeast (states I presume) but if you need to irrigate the bunkers in a cool season zone then you are doing something seriously wrong. Not sure what varieties but will find out for you.

I have worked for many years with fescues and never had any major problems. I get the impression that good fescue supers in the states are a bit thin on the ground.

Jon

[Randy Thompson]

RJ,
The project is just a couple miles north of the city La Serrena. I am currently at the project and the internet is not high speed so it took five minutes to see the first 42 seconds, so I will check it out tomorrow night from my home where I have high speed but it looks interesting and new to me. I can tell you the area gets about three inches of rainfall a year and it comes in June, July and August only, so nine months without a drop, vegatation is limited, very limited. I am trying to learn and experiment of posting pictures and once I have suceeded, will post some photos of the course and of this particular problem. It is quite different, a links course in a desert setting, some fantastic, unique stuff that I am sure most members will enjoy. The best part is the developer wants the course to reach its full potential after some six or seven years of being opened and I am coming coming every month for the next year to hopefully fullfill their desires and goals. There are some definetly great holes out here.
Kelly,
 I was thinking the opposite of the flat bunker style, I want them to burrow them out, thinking that will be less acceptable to having the sand blown out. Deeper and bowled. Were removing bentgrass that has contaminated the approaches and fairways. Were removing fescue that blew in on some fairways and is clumpy. We have about six to eight acres to sod I would say, so were are taking some of the out of play fairway areas (some areas eighty yards wide for example) with good established turf and resodding. This will work better then trying to germinate seed in a hundred areas at once on a course open for play. We will then go in refill the areas where we rob the sod with sand and my idea was to take the sand from the bunkers, bowling them out and making them deeper, similar to the old country. We are also starting to cut tee boxes in a square shape to further enhance the ole country style. Do you think, this bowling and deeper program will result in an improvement and lessen the sand erosion for the wind? I welcome other opinions as well, with any knowledge on this subject.

[Randy Thompson]

Kelly,
Your getting hard to please in your old age, don´t you have squared off and rectangular tees at Laurel Links?

[Jon Wiggett]

My question is what mix of grasses has the best results and resist these type of conditions. The course is located in a perfect micro climate for cool season grasses. The original grass established around these bunkers is a 100% ryegrass mix.

Randy,

Bermuda might be good, tough to play from when it gets long though.  I see bermuda holding its own in the northeast.  Jon may have special insight on the fines but I have personally witnessed some bad situations.  I believe the USGA agronomist was adament about not using the fine fescue on bunker slopes as well. 

Correct if I am wrong Kelly, but isn't Bermuda a warm season grass . I am all for the right grass in the right situation and in Florida I don't think I would recommend fine fescue as I don't think it will take the humidity. I sure wouldn't want to use Bermuda in a cold season situation as I want my grass growing for a majority of the playing season and not dormant.

RJ- yes it is in chile

I even considered putting a Bermuda hybrid but we really only have about seven weeks of ideal Bermuda weather

Randy,

don't forget that grass needs to be growing to regenerate from damage caused by wind and drought. If it isn't growing it will decay over time. 45 weeks of non optimal growth is a long time to expect a dormant plant to survive the wear and tear.

For solid advice about fescue I would suggest contacting Steve Isaac at the R&A. If you drop me a e.mail I will forward you his contact details.

p.s. From 2001-2003 I grew in a course in a mediterranean climate. We had 3 months where the temperatures topped +90°F and no rainfall. The course was built mostly on pure sand and was wall to wall fine fescue. never had any problems even outside the irrigation system the sward stayed in good condition.

[RJ_Daley]

So, is that it, just south of Punta Teatinos and west of highway 5 on the coast?  

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=La+Serena,+Coquimbo+Chile&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=0,-29.900780,-71.244766&ll=-29.831858,-71.276121&spn=0.020401,0.066776&t=h&z=14

[Tim Copeland]

Line the edges and then establish Bremuda....should be able to do that in Chile
Staple very close together


Ignore the rising moon


Before the liner is applied


Close up of staples





Now that I have looked at the google image of your course you may need to alter the color of the liner

[Matthew Hunt]

Marman would be the best option but some may find it unfair. In my experience the most important thing is the proper raking of the bunker to prevent de-shaping and erosion from bunkers.

[Matthew Hunt]

Please don't go for the TOC style turf-stacking thats 'in' at the moment, its ascetically displeasing and harder to maintain. Why not use RCD's great bunkers as a templete (I may be baised thought )

 

[James Bennett]

Randy

I assume you have a very dry summer and are likely to have infrequent watering, or perhaps uneven watering int he bunker edge areas.

I live in Adelaide in Australia and expect we have a similar climate.  My club is in the hills and so is 5 degrees celsius cooler than the Coast, but we can manage Santa Anna fairways (a micro-fine leaf hybrid couch/bermuda).  We leave the mowers in the shed for 6 months of the year although we play year-round - yes the fairways grow a lot in December through February, but that is about it.  And they are pretty white in winter, but playable (although to thin for our older members).

Santa Anna wasn't the grass of choice on a recent bunker project, but it got used when the area was unstable around the edges.  The roots established deeply and firmed up the area quite well.  We have some pockets of fine fescue nearby which took some time (years) to establish despite lack of water in the roughs away from the irrigated fairway  but I would be less confident of its ability to stand up to harsh treatment on the edges.  There is/was some rye nearby, but inadequate and infrequent water has seen that disappear over the summer droughts (which I assume you have in Chile).

Have you considered using a couch/bermuda, then once established using a light (and permanent) oversow of either fine fescue or rye?

James B

[Randy Thompson]

Jon,
The area doesn´t have frost so the bermuda would never be dormant but I don´t suspect there would be sufficent growth to over come the traffic and some topdressing that results from wind erosion. Overseeding would help but you would probably need to change the bermuda base every three or four years, not ideal but better then the situation that exisits today. Gut feeling is that the answer is in the fescue family, grown for six months in a nursery and taking at least six inches of roots when transplanting or resodding.
RJ- You found us, won´t be to far in the future when we can agree on a time and I can go out to the eighteenth green, look up and wave and you will see my on googles. Personally, I am still in awe of microwaves and faxes and trying to fiqure out how and why they work!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Randy,
A hard fescue may work if its not close cut, and if the traffic is light.
I once missed a question on an exam at Penn St. when asked to spec a cool season grass on a south facing bunker face with limited irrigation available. I don't remember my incorrect answer, but I do remember that hard fescue was the correct answer.

[Jon Wiggett]

Bermuda might be good,

So you didn't bring up Bermuda Kelly

Kelly, Randy asked for opinions and I answered to the best of my ability. I have very little knowledge of warm season grasses of which bermuda is one but I have enough knowledge of cool season grass enviroments to know that bermuda would not be the best choice if it only has a strong growing season for 7 weeks in the area. As Randy asked for opinions I would imagine that he also felt there might be a better option.

Jon,
The area doesn´t have frost so the bermuda would never be dormant but I don´t suspect there would be sufficent growth to over come the traffic and some topdressing that results from wind erosion. Overseeding would help but you would probably need to change the bermuda base every three or four years, not ideal but better then the situation that exisits today.

opps! Oh, there you go.

I would futher add that in the US golf maintenance has a different outlook on what is required and desired. This is probably one of the reasons why fine fescues are so misunderstood in the US. If in the northeast they were having problems with fine fescue bunker faces then either the climate is not correct for it or the maintenance was wrong (does the northeast suffer from periods of humidity?)
To use this as a basis for arguing that fine fescues are always bad for bunker faces suggest to me you might benifit from a spell in hell bunker to see the error of your ways  .

Finally....

Gut feeling is that the answer is in the fescue family, grown for six months in a nursery and taking at least six inches of roots when transplanting or resodding.

who suggested that

Sorry if the tone is somewhat sarcastic Kelly but yours got my back up a little as well. Maybe we can kiss and make up oh go on

If your ever in my notheast when I am around I would love to cross swords over 18 holes at say Ganton

Randy,

when taking the sod go deeper than 6" atleast 10" to 12".

[RJ_Daley]

Randy, maybe it isn't so dependent on your mix of bunker edge grasses as it is the soil chem.  In looking at the aerial, and considering the enormous reputation Chile has for mineral deposits, maybe the soil is so alkaline that it doesn't allow any turf to root due to the inhibiting of P to work in the rootzone.  Thus, what does barely germinate, doesn't root, and the sand-soil composition is dry and friable, and crumbly, not holding up to any traffic. 

Does the turf manager there know his chem, PH and if it is high PH, is it alkaline-calcareous?

 

[Jon Wiggett]

Phew, glad to hear that Kelly . Next time you happen to be Britain and have the time let me know and I will try to arrange coming across so we can play Ganton.

[Randy Thompson]

Jon,
Glad you worked everything out with Kelly, watch out if he actually shows up and starts negotiating strokes, that won´t be so easy! Just for your information, the first job Kelly and I did together was about 200 miles south of La Serrena on the coast but well elevated above the ocean, the site wasn´t so windy but temperatures and the micro climate were very similar with the only difference was the southern site was associated with more humidity. Against our recommendations the developer established common bermuda fairways and tiff dwarf greens. If you go by the books, its a 100 percent cool season environment but the bermuda lives and grows, nothing to write home about but most grasses have some ability to adapt to outside optimum growing conditions.
RJ,
Don’t know if you had the chance to read my interview on gca in September but down here it’s pretty much a one man show. Superintendent? Oh, you mean the Forman, that I doubt graduated from high school. We did start out with an agronomist, that I trained but he left after two years. So anyways I was involved in the first couple of years as maintenance consultant and after six years I am back for a year or so until it reaches it potential. Your observations our well noted and pretty much on track. The sand base is excellent; we originally consulted with Rick Kroger who was at the time one of the five agronomists approved by Brookside labs. The organic content was good in the native soil, and the perculation was around six and they approved the native sand as acceptable and meeting USGA spec for greens construction. So the soil couldn’t be better. However the water was a problem, high in PH, high in salt and super high in Carbonates. We bought a sulfur burner and have been controlling the Ph of the water through the injection of Sulfuric acid in the irrigation water. We are making light frequent applications of Fertilizer of 22-11-22 and the phosphorus does have a tend to get locked up but tissue testing shows were ok. The roots are ten to twelve inches in fairways and did well throughout the summer on waterings of every four days. I see the problem as the bunker edges causes the immediate turf in the area to dry out quicker and therefore probably has fifty to sixty percent higher water requirement. It is also notable that 90 percent of edge can be super healthy but specific area subject to the wind suffer. I am hoping a the fescue once established will develop even deeper roots during the ten months of cool weather and withstand the two months of hotter weather better then the rye. Will try to get some pictures on in the morning!

[James Bennett]

Randy

you know a lot about your local conditions.  Please disregard my post above. 

What I would be interested in is why the bunker edges have so much of a problem if the roots nearby in the fairway are 12 inches or so deep.  I can understand perhaps on the rough side of the bunker, but is the issue also on the fairway side of the bunker?  Can you post a photo of a typical bunker edge that you are referring to?

James B

[Randy Thompson]

James,
 Your previous comments are legitmate and could work and would work better then rye in my opinion but.....I am searching other alternative and other considerations but your advice was well recieved and I may try it at least in one area. I am uploading picture now and have been doing so for the last two hours. This is my vigin experience with photos, I now reralize I should have lightened them first.

[James Bennett]

thanks Randy.  I know I now have an improved understanding of why some recent practices undertaken at my club have worked, and then not worked. 

Rye gives such a wonderful quick result for a rough (although its invasion into nearby couch/bermuda fairway by seed is unsightly) but the rye fails miserably once water reduces in extended droughts.  The fescue survives the droughts (although too thin for member expectations of a rough) but it takes longer to establish, so failing the immediate results test that members want.  I just wish we had some occasional summer rain.  Adelaide ain't Melbourne!

James B

[Jon Wiggett]

Randy,

I will read the interview again. The native soil sounds good. I think the problem with the salts in the irrigation water would be a problem for fescue although I have no personal experience with such. The PH should not be such an issue unless it is very high. I have worked on a course as super with a low PH of 7.2 and up to 8 in place with no problems for fescue. Infact this helped to reduce pressure from unwanted grasses. I have also experienced root growth in excess of 36" in fescue cut at fairway height although the conditions (soil) need to be correct. You also could to do regular, deep aeration (slitting to 18") on a monthly basis.

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