[John Kavanaugh]

Basically the Bandon Resort is nothing but a walk with beautiful views and a putting contest.  Tiger wins tournament after tournament because he putts better than anyone else.  Bandon IV is now being celebrated because any hack can hit the huge green and it is going to be delicious to watch them putt.  Has putting always been so vital?  Has its  importance gone over the top?  Shouldn't the ball striker be rewarded equally if the game is going to remain fun and balanced?  Is this the result of a lazy populous that begs for everyone to be on equal footing?

[tlavin]

It's hard to comparably reward the ball striker when a 300 yard drive and a three-foot putt count the same on the scorecard.  Great putting is what separates terrific amateurs from professional players.  It also separates run-of-the-mill pros from the best in the game.  As a television viewer, putting is pretty boring when compared to the other shots in golf, but that's where the money is.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Ben Hogan thought so. 

Tiger has hit 80% of greens in regulation in pga tour events thus far. Its the only statistical category he is in the top 5 this early in the season. That's pretty good ball striking.  He's averaging almost 66 strokes per round.

The guy is not human.

[J Sadowsky]

Basically the Bandon Resort is nothing but a walk with beautiful views and a putting contest.  Tiger wins tournament after tournament because he putts better than anyone else.  Bandon IV is now being celebrated because any hack can hit the huge green and it is going to be delicious to watch them putt.  Has putting always been so vital?  Has its  importance gone over the top?  Shouldn't the ball striker be rewarded equally if the game is going to remain fun and balanced?  Is this the result of a lazy populous that begs for everyone to be on equal footing?

I don't know if I agree with this re: Bandon IV.  Just because both the 18 handicapper and the 4 handicapper have a putt as their second shot doesn't mean the hole is decided by putting, when the first putt is 120 feet, and the second is 4 feet.

[Tim Bert]

If anyone plans to put the hole on a sidehill lie on the crazy green and make it mini-golf, then ball striking isn't rewarded.  As long as the pin is on a level spot, I'm not sure how you can effectively argue that a 140-160 yard shot to a green of that size doesn't favor someone with superior ball striking ability.

It sounds like just about anyone will be able to stick it somewhere on the green, though the wind may complicate things.  Getting it close to the hole will take good focus and superior ball striking.  Sticking the ball inside the 10-20 foot range would seem to be a great advantage over a potential 150 foot roller coaster putt.

[Mike Sweeney]

  Shouldn't the ball striker be rewarded equally if the game is going to remain fun and balanced? 

Without knowng that green, but having some understanding of MacRaynor Short holes, my guess is there are 3 or 4 quadrants on that hole:

* the good ball striker will be within a quadrant for a relatively easy 2 putt and a possible birdie;
* when the pin is on either side, assume a 3 putt for the average player that is two quadrants away, and a hopeful 2 putt 1 quadrant away;
* if the average player challenges the corner pin and misses the green, they are looking at very difficult recovery shot.

The basic short game of golf has some combination of:

* putting
* lag putting
* sand play
* bump and run
* chipping

On the Short hole, lag putting is over-emphasized and bump and run is probably not there. The real question is how they balance out the Short with the other 17 holes.

All of the MacRaynor courses that I have played have some balance of aerial and bouncing approaches, which then feed into a variety of short game areas.

[JESII]

The great thing about golf, as a competitive game, is that every weakness is borne out.

One reason Tiger will pass Jack's 18 majors is that Jack didn't KNOW he could get it up and down from every bunker guarding a pin so he would avoid them. In the end he must have cost himself a handful due to overly conservative approach play...how else can you account for someone posting 40 or so second and third place finishes?

[JESII]

I guess the point of that is that John K's premise is off...

[Steve Sayre]

Surprised nobody has jumped on the long putter issue.  What's the sentiment out there for belly and longer flatsticks?  I (would) vote to ban for all the well articulated reasons.  Does the USGA care?

[Bob_Huntley]

Steve,

Is there any statistical evidence that the long putter has skewed the number of putts holed, versus the regular implement?


Bob

[wsmorrison]

Even if the long or belly putter has not skewed the number of putts per round, it should be banned anyway.  When the butt of the club is anchored somewhere on the body, it is not a free swing.  To my mind, it isn't a golf stroke any longer and should be regulated out of the sport.

[John Mayhugh]

I haven't played any of the Bandon courses so I can't comment on them specifically.  But I have played several others that are pretty wide off the tee and much of the course's defenses are in the green complexes.  I think great ball-striking is still rewarded on these types of courses.  If you hit the ball well, you're going to hit a lot of greens.  The better player gets rewarded for hitting the right portion of the green. 

The not so good player (such as myself) gets punished for missing greens because the more severe contours make chipping and pitching much more difficult.  Nothing like missing a green on a Raynor or Ross and still three-putting because of a careless chip.

I would much rather lose strokes around the green than by picking up penalty strokes or hacking out of rough and trees.  My score on wide courses with bigger greens isn't generally any better, but enjoyment tends to be a lot more.

[John Kavanaugh]

One of my problems with the modern whoop-de-doo random contours is that it is close to impossible to control a shot well enough to make a difference for any shot longer than 150 yds out.  What I enjoyed at the RTJ Trail courses is that the sections of green were so well defined that shot making did come into play.  I grew tired of the drive, crap shoot, lag putt, putt some more strategy of a course like Bandon Trails.

[Gib Carpenter]

Surprised nobody has jumped on the long putter issue.  What's the sentiment out there for belly and longer flatsticks?  I (would) vote to ban for all the well articulated reasons.  Does the USGA care?

I agree with Tom Weiskopf's view that the rule should be no club in the bag longer than your driver, end of story.

[Gib Carpenter]

Even if the long or belly putter has not skewed the number of putts per round, it should be banned anyway.  When the butt of the club is anchored somewhere on the body, it is not a free swing.  To my mind, it isn't a golf stroke any longer and should be regulated out of the sport.

Ben Crenshaw made the same argument when the USGA banned the fat paddle grip he had used for years on his fabled 8802...he said, "at least I have free expression of the stroke" as opposed to those who anchor the club on the belly, sternum or (yikes) chin. Fell on deaf ears unfortunately, leading to the perverse situation whereby one has to either cheat to use an original 8802 or Wilson "Designed By Palmer" or destroy a good portion of the club's collectible (and sentimental) value by replacing the non-conforming grip.

[Patrick Glynn]

JohnK - I think your problem stems from your lack of ability rather than any inherent design flaws.

Just a thought,

Patrick

[Peter Pallotta]

One of my problems with the modern whoop-de-doo random contours is that it is close to impossible to control a shot well enough to make a difference for any shot longer than 150 yds out.  What I enjoyed at the RTJ Trail courses is that the sections of green were so well defined that shot making did come into play.  I grew tired of the drive, crap shoot, lag putt, putt some more strategy of a course like Bandon Trails.

John - there's nothing to say that the second shot on a second-shot golf course has to be a player's second shot, as it could be his third; and I imagine that there are more than a few good players for whom your 150 yard cut-off doesn't apply, as they can pretty easily hoist an 8 iron pretty high. BUT, it does seem worth discussing to me whether many modern-day courses that are "defended at the green" and not off the tee haven't perhaps swung too much towards the "hard-par/easy bogie" ethos for the sake of the middling player.

Peter     

[Bob_Huntley]

Even if the long or belly putter has not skewed the number of putts per round, it should be banned anyway.  When the butt of the club is anchored somewhere on the body, it is not a free swing.  To my mind, it isn't a golf stroke any longer and should be regulated out of the sport.

Wayne, I agree with you but my question remains.... how many guys have won anything of note with the long putter, excepting Bruce Lietzke?


Bob

[Gib Carpenter]

Seems to me the course that places the greatest emphasis on putting is the Old Course itself. On the huge double greens one can routinely face putts in excess of 200 feet, not even factoring in the many opportunities to use the putter from off of the green.

It is said that in winning the 1964 Open the very first time he had ever encountered the Old Course, "Champagne Tony" Lema won the everlasting admiration of the St Andrews locals by time and again putting his ball dead from great distances. When asked to explain his uncanny ability, he is reported to have stated that in his view the "essence" of golf was

"the art of turning three shots into two"

It's probably my favorite golf quote and the one that has had the greatest influence on my own approach to and enjoyment of the game.

[Jim Nugent]

Ben Hogan thought so. 

Tiger has hit 80% of greens in regulation in pga tour events thus far. Its the only statistical category he is in the top 5 this early in the season. That's pretty good ball striking.  He's averaging almost 66 strokes per round.

The guy is not human.

PGATour.com says Tiger leads in 8 categories, including:

GIR
Putts per GIR
Scoring
Sand Saves
Par Breakers
Birdie Percentage

Yet he's hit less than 50% of fairways, while his average drive is 283.6 yards.  He's paid next to no penalty for missing fairways.  Wonder why his accuracy is so terrible, when he's hitting it so short? 

[Andy Ryall]

I think based on both golf/ earthmoving equipment and agrinomy, the game has changed in terms of options.  60 degree wedges and uniform golf balls enable an air game to utilize flop shots and a variety of spins around greens that were not possible in prior generations.    I think the importance of putting only highlights the need to be a total player to reach whatever level each golfer aspires to.     I will agree that the importance of putting is amplified at the professional level but if anything, I think options for the amateur have only expanded as technology has flourished.

[Kalen Braley]

J/K...

Haven't you ever heard of: "drive for show, putt for dough

If golf was only about just getting the ball in the fairway and on the green, then Sergio would have been the worlds #1 for several years because he is wicked good from tee to green.  Its when he gets on the green that he falls apart.

After all John, this game is all about getting the ball in the hole, not necessarily about who hits the fairway or GIR....

[John Kavanaugh]

I just saw Shivas's name on the list...please refrain from turning this into another long putter debate.  I don't mind drive for show, putt for dough but i grow tired of "drive like a ho and ask what fo".

[John Kavanaugh]

What list?

The list of potential posters.  Or people on line if you like.

[Sean_A]

I know where John is coming from.  I strongly dislike greens which seem to be weirdly contoured to the point where they are not intuitive, can't be read or just plain don't make sense with the surrounds.  Sure its fine to have the odd green like this, but a steady diet is just nonsense imo.  Having said that, I haven't run into that many courses where there is the case.  In my experience, designers usually err on the side of dullness where greens are concerned.  I would say that play with the putter is not unduly important. 

Ciao

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