Another Ranking...Texas Golf 2008

[Gary_Mahanay]

And John K. how did you get to play Craig Ranch through something with the Dallas Morning News?  Been here all my life and played the course four times and never heard of that deal.  If its none of my business I'll understand.

[John Kavanaugh]

And John K. how did you get to play Craig Ranch through something with the Dallas Morning News?  Been here all my life and played the course four times and never heard of that deal.  If its none of my business I'll understand.

Some raters invited me to tag along.  Raters have been very, very good to me.  Why I give them so much shit I do not know.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK,

Why so coy?  You played it with Lou and I.......I think Lou set it up but I needed to play it to rank it.

Gary,

The system tells us that we can only have a few 10's, etc. because you give a ten to the top five courses in the state.

I I didn't even participate until a few years ago, thinking it would be a conflict of interest, but other gca's were so I said I would join.   have a problem in that I hate to rank my own courses highly. I doubt the other gca's, or for that matter, club pros and others in the biz have such problems. I also suspect that there are voting cliques and all.

Of course, the primary objective of this and any other rankings is to sell newpapers.  No real heartburn, but I have never really agreed with the rankings.  And, I think they change some criteria.  For example, years ago, there were tradition points, which made moving up the list hard for a new course.  In the last few years, the lists have had newer courses really dominate, which couldn't have happened before.

That actually makes sense. I saw another survey recently that says Texas golfers generally prefer newer courses to old ones.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK,

Why so coy?  You played it with Lou and I.......I think Lou set it up but I needed to play it to rank it.

I don't kiss and tell but like to disclose the terms on which I played when commenting on the merits of a course.  I am sometimes shocked myself when I look back at all the fun and free times I have had with raters from most every publication.  I do attempt to give back but find myself more traveled than visited.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Jeff,

Thanks for the explanation.  Now that Lou has left our great state and the DMN panel is why I ranked your opinion so high.

So how do you get on this "Tag Along" list that John K. speaks of ?

[John Kavanaugh]

So how do you get on this "Tag Along" list that John K. speaks of ?

Say something interesting.

[Matt_Ward]

The aspect that I like about the Dallas Morning News poll is that it's one of the  very few major newspapers that I know about that actually does such an assessment on a yearly basis.

I agree 100% w Jeff B - the category of tradition was nothing more than an attempt to shore-up the old time layouts -- a number of which generally don't have the wherewithal to compete with a number of the top tier new layouts that have opened recently.

There's no doubt flaws with any ratings system but often time state listings with residents doing the heavy lifting are a bit more deeper in their overall analysis to unearth trends and up and coming courses than those carried out from a national magazine which depends disproportionately on nonresidents.

One final comment -- how Champions / Cypress Creek maintains its position as a top tier layout really baffles me. The layout has more to do with its founders than the actual architecture that's present. Remove the former and the latter is self evident.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

One final comment -- how Champions / Cypress Creek maintains its position as a top tier layout really baffles me. The layout has more to do with its founders than the actual architecture that's present. Remove the former and the latter is self evident.

While I would agree that Champions is not one of the greatest layouts in the country...I think it is quite good at what it wants to be.  I also have yet to play a better set of par 3's anywhere in Texas.  Out of curiousity Matt how many rounds have you played on Cypress Creek and when was the last time you were there?

[Steve Lang]

 

I wouldn't really quibble about the absolute rankings in the top tiers.. IMHO,  it's somewhat a function of topography/geography..

I really like Whispering Pines, but I'm not sure why it trumps all these other "fantastic" courses.. put Champions on slightly more rolling terrain and it be right up there!

Houston Chronicle used to publish a local course review every late summer based upon a panel of players' input.

I'd bet that 99.9% of golfers in most of TX weren't thinking about gca as we played in 70-80°F sunny blue sky weather on Sat & Sun.. :<))

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

I've played Cypress Creek / Champions two times. The last was roughly a decade ago.

If something has happened that is drastically different from what I played previously please let me and everyone else know.

Candidly, much of what calls itself golf in the immediate Houston area is really rather limited in terms of architectural quality given the layouts I have played in the area over the years. No doubt some of the more recent addition may be able to offer a good bit more -- God knows, the bar for excellence isn't that high to start with.

Champions landed the '69 US Open because of the push from its founders and some of the more well connected folks in the Texas area. The course is one of the most boring I have ever played -- huge greens and the same redundant shot flavor time after time after time. I'll concede the par-3 front for the sake of argument but overall Cypress Creek would not make my top 400 or so courses.

Cypress Creek proves the point that being the so-called "best" from a given area doesn't ipso facto mean you are then among the best in the nation.

[Lou_Duran]

Jeff B,

I did arrange the game after John K emailed me about playing during his visit.  If memory serves, Cowboys GC had something going on and you wanted to play Craigs Ranch.   John K getting a freebie was something the pro shop decided on its own.  As I recall, the course was mostly empty on a stormy Fall day, and we didn't get to complete the round.  It will be interesting to see what the Nationwide players shoot on the course.   I think it is one of Weiskopfs' better efforts and like it very much.

Bill McBride,

I have not played the C & C course at Barton Creek (it was closed for renovations and/or was hosting outings during my two or three visits), but you are the only person I have heard who finds it superior to the Fazio courses.  No doubt that you would find some company on this website.  I probably like Austin Golf Club more than any course at BC, but the site is probably not as interesting.

Matt,

I tend to agree with you directionally regarding Cypress Creek, a bit too repetitive for me, but I know many people who love the place (without regard to Mr. Burke).  The best amateurs in the state play there annually and the reports I hear of the course as a competitive venue are typically glowing.  The couple of times I've played it the course was wet and the greens relatively slow.  The greens at least are typically fast and smooth during tournaments.  And as large as they are, they require accurate iron play in order to have a chance to score.

My copy of the ratings has not arrived, but I look forward to reading it.  The folks in charge do a wonderful job with limited resources, and though the results are not without some controversy, the process is on the level and transparent.  The panelists I've met are without exception knowledgeable and serious about the process.  There is no pressure or influence applied by the paper to provide anything other than each panelist's best opinion of a golf course.  I miss Texas very much, and not being part of the panel is a real loss for me.  Hopefully they'll have me back when I return.

Regarding  Whispering Pines, when it is firm and fast as it was the last time I played it, it is worthy of being at the top of the list.  When it is wet and boggy (there is considerable wetlands and flood prone acreage around it), it is not nearly as fun.

I also like Westwood CC very much and would prefer playing there than at several others on the top 50.  I also think that Briggs Ranch doesn't get its due.   

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

My point re: Champions is how Texas golf has evolved over the years. Clearly, from an architectural perspective Cypress Creek is rather bland -- just because it appeals to the better players doesn't mean to say it has anything of real consequence from a design perspective. I've only played the course twice but frankly if I never headed back there it would not be that much of a loss given the growth of other courses throughout the state -- some of which are clearly making great strides in terms of architectural overall quality.

I also agree with you - kudos to the Dallas Morning News for their efforts. It would be good to see other newspapers doing something of a comparable effort.

[Michael Christensen]

I think Tierra Verde is low....I played it several times about 8 years ago, but it was fun

If Cordillera Ranch isn't top ten next year, this list is a joke.  I haven't played Whispering Pines nor Dallas National, but I think CRanch is in the class of the other courses listed. 

Is Boot Ranch that good?

[ChipRoyce]

Every year I go spend a few days with friends at Barton Creek.  I enjoy playing the Crenshaw Cliffside course there much more than the two Fazio courses and the Palmer course that's 15 miles away.  All three of those are rated way above the Crenshaw course that has huge greens that sprawl naturally across the slopes, several falling away front to back.  The Fazio courses are very manufactured and the Palmer course is nothing special at all.

Dear Abby, is it just me?

Bill / Lou;
Call me crazy, but add me to your list of folks who prefer the Crenshaw course over the Fazios. Both Fazio courses are 'nice', but I find the Crenshaw to be much more appealing.

I have no idea why Barton associated themselves with the Palmer course, some business benefit must exist, but have never heard a good thing about it and its location.

[Steve Lang]

 

Matt, ya don't have to rip us with lines like "what passes for golf in houston" , that's just unnecessarily being big-city mean spirited..  beyond frank..

there's plenty of good affordable public and private golf down here in SE TX, 3-4 hour rounds.. 36 holes on a sunday in february.. and near year round play.. who gives a wit about golden year gca that one can't play??  and when just getting out and enjoying a round of golf friendship or competition is the goal.  history is great, but frankly it doesn't do anything for the common working man trying to get in some golf..


gotta run, its 78°F and I've got sun till 6:20 or so and time for 9..

[Wyatt Halliday]

Lou,

If I recall correctly, you are a big fan of Pine Dunes. I must say that of all of the courses I have played in Texas (most on the DMN list) Pine Dunes stuck with me more that anything else. It is very raw, subtle and intimate. A complete detparture from what is generally considered as "good" in Texas (big and brawny).

Have you been back there lately??

[Lou_Duran]

Wyatt,

Pine Dunes is one of my personal favorites in TX in part for the reasons you note.   It has good variety with a couple rather original holes and several very good ones as well.  I find that the back has a two or three so-so holes, and the 18th probably needs some work.  I haven't been back in the last two years, and yes, absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Steve,

Matt has spoken favorably of the evolution in Texas golf.  Frankly, though I would love to be a member of Brook Hollow, in the metro-NY area it would likely not be ranked among the top five Tillinghast courses.  The NE had a much earlier concentration of population and wealth than Texas, thus the plethora of great classical courses.  No doubt that the topography and soils also contributed to their advantage.

I haven't thought much about this, but I suspect that if we were to compare post-1990 gca, Texas would fare quite well.  The four major/best Fazio courses I've played- Escondio, Dallas National, Briggs Ranch, and Vaquero- are all outstanding.  Some of Nicklaus' work in Texas is also very good, as is that of Weiskopf and Morrish.

My current exile in CA only reinforces my appreciation of the virtues of Texas golf you extol in your second paragraph.  I would add that the Houston Golf Association and the South TX GA also provide many outstanding competitive opportunities.  Some are even open to higher handicap players.

Ironic how a state often considered by some as backwards and too conservative provides some of the best and cheapest access to golf in the U.S.       

[mike_beene]

Lou,your post made me stop and think about how easy it was to play as a kid in Dallas. In the mid 70's my dad would buy me and I think some other kids a card for $35 that let us play all summer on any Dallas muny. He dropped me off on way downtown and picked me up on way home. Maybe it was not the best architectecture but it was firm,fast and even the hustlers were nice to us. Really ,other than no sand traps ,it was as good as the clubs I would occasionally get invited to.Hard to really think of this as a golf wasteland.Get your self back here. (and you are right about 18 at Pine Dunnes,where did that hole come from?)

[Bill Satterfield]

I would enjoy hearing some commentary on Colonial.  I played it, Vaquero, Whispering Pines, Carlton Woods, etc. in November and felt like Whispering Pines was easily the best course of the bunch.  Is Colonial similar to Champions?  What are some of the pros and cons of Colonial as some of you see it?

[J_ Crisham]

Matt, I played Champions last april and found it to be a very nice club in good shape. The par 3's were excellent tests and the par 4's were a load from the 7000yds we played from. The topography is somewhat flat but the usage of the creek and ponds is very nice. You made a comment that this course wouldn't fit into the top 400. I would certainly disagree with you on this point . I have played roughly half of the top 100 courses in the US and World so I have seen a wide variety of highly regarded course.  I also think that Champions has an atmosphere that is very inviting. I belong to 3 different clubs and I can tell you that not all clubs are as welcoming as Champions. I'm not sure where you belong but I'd be surprised if you would ever meet  a more gregarious  group.

[Chris Cupit]

Can anyone compare these two Houston courses:  Shadowhawk and Carlton Woods?

[Sam Morrow]

I really don't know what to make of the Top 100, I really think I could mix all the courses outside the Top 10 up and they would still look okay. There is lots of solid depth outside the top. I do have issue with both courses at Blackhorse being in the top 100.

The real issue I have is the public top 100, I can't figure it out, I just think the list there is way off. I see courses like Sky Creek, Fossil Creek, and Castle Hills way down the list and just don't get it.

[Bill Satterfield]

Can anyone compare these two Houston courses:  Shadowhawk and Carlton Woods?

I've played them.  Was there one of the Carlton Woods courses you were interested in comparing to Shadow Hawk more than the other?

[Chris Cupit]

Can anyone compare these two Houston courses:  Shadowhawk and Carlton Woods?

I've played them.  Was there one of the Carlton Woods courses you were interested in comparing to Shadow Hawk more than the other?

I guess the course that recently hosted the USGA Team Championship.  I assume it was one course although I really have no idea. 

[Bill Satterfield]

It was done at the Fazio course which is the newer of the two (2005).  The courses are of similar difficulty and general appeal for me.  Carlton Woods has more elevation changes which I always like, but it is especially nice in Houston since so much of the area is very flat.  Like most Fazio courses, I think his bunkering is more interesting but Shadow Hawk's bunkering is very nice as well.  The water hazards come into play in better fashion at Shadow Hawk with gradual lines and angles.  Carlton Woods is cut through the tall, dense pine tree varieties while Shadow Hawk plays through pecan trees and has a much more open feeling overall.  From an esthetics standpoint I like the remote setting of Carlton Woods better while Shadow Hawk delivers a nice challenge through smaller, elevated greens.  Both are kept in exceptional condition with Carlton Woods keeping their greens faster.