[Dan Herrmann]

How would you define skyline green and/or skyline fairway?  Thanks!

[Michael Dugger]

This is the green

[John Moore II]

I would agree that the picture is a skyline green, where the back and whatever is over the green cannot be seen from where the shot is taken. The fairway would be the same, it simply disappears over the horizon.

[Sean_A]

Here is a self-explanatory example.


Ciao

[Tom Yost]

Here is a self-explanatory example.

Skyline bunker?

[R_Paulis]

Played Newcastle in the Seattle area a few years back. Can't remember which 18, but i do remember one green where downtown Seattle "sits" on top of the green as you crest a hill in the fairway.

Not really a skyline green view I suppose...

[Dan Herrmann]

Thanks.
I was curious becase the 14th hole at French Creek (PA - Hanse) just had about 30 large trees removed from the left side of the fairway.

The fairway now looks suspended above the surrounding land.  It's a really cool visual effect.  Once the snow melts, I'll take some pictures.   

Also cool is the effect on the visual to the approach shot.   The green looks like a little saucer just hanging out there in space way above the creek.    You also now can see 2/3 of the green from the tee.  This serves to seduce the bold golfer in going for the green off the tee. 

Forunately, Gil was involved in the tree removal.   It had been his desire to remove these trees during construction in '02, but it didn't work out.

[James Bennett]

A couple from my home club in Adelaide (Blackwood)

Firstly, a sky-line with a single tree (a local stringy-bark).  Hole #13.


Secondly, a sky-line green that became a green with a wooded backdrop.  Hole #11.


Thirdly, Hole #11 with the skyline feature restored, and the offending trees removed.  The green surface is partly visible, partly hidden and golfers are usually guessing where their ball is until they walk u to the green.


James B

[Sean_A]

Here is a self-explanatory example.

Skyline bunker?

Tom

Th pin is dead center on the line where green and blue meet.  A skyline green is just that.  There shouldn't be anything visible behind the green which gives visual clues to distance.

Ciao

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Dugger,

That's a neat picture, one that would seem to present the golfer with a good deal of uncertainty, even with yardage indicators.

But, if a tree or tree top was visible behind the green, wouldn't it still be a "skyline" green ?

Isn't a "skyline" green one that sits above the area of approach, with the terrain behind the green falling off, such that the horizon is the putting surface ?

I often think of the 13th hole at Sand Hills.

If, tomorrow, someone planted a spruce behind that green, wouldn't it retain it's skyline qualities in terms of the spacial relationships of the features, the tee, green and land behind the green ?

Belmont CC outside of Boston has a wonderful uphill skyline green.
I believe it might be the 17th hole.  Unfortunately, someone planted evergreens behind the green.
Whether it was to protect golfers on the fairway behind the green or for framing purposes, or both, doesn't matter.  A wonderful approach shot was ruined by the introduction of trees.  If the trees were removed the green would have an appearance similar to the picture you posted.

Hence, I don't believe that trees behind a green disqualify the green as a "skyline" green.  Rather, they merely frustrate the intended use and appearance. .... temporarily.

[Peter Pallotta]

Michael

The Mines (Mike Devries) has a wonderful hole with a green like that. And the extra neat thing is that the green is set quite farther back than you think, with a bunker and lots of rough well short of it. Well, actually it's not "than you think", because from the tee you can get a better idea of the green complex, i.e. you can make out the bunker and the rough. And yet, when I was down there hitting my approach shot, somehow the 'look' encouraged me to forget all that (I'm also dumb that way). I struck a short iron very well, and I thought the shot was going to turn out great - so great that when I got to the green and couldn't see the ball anywhere on it, I suddenly had the thrilling (if short lived) thought that it may have gone in the hole. Actually, I was twenty yards short, in the rough.

I haven't had a lot of experience with skyline greens and visual deception, but the experience of one at The Mines really wet my appetite. A wonderful (and in that case, fairly short) golf hole, one where I should've laid up short (i.e. higher up the downslope) to get a better view....I should've...I should've....

Peter 

[Michael Dugger]

Michael Dugger,

That's a neat picture, one that would seem to present the golfer with a good deal of uncertainty, even with yardage indicators.

But, if a tree or tree top was visible behind the green, wouldn't it still be a "skyline" green ?

Isn't a "skyline" green one that sits above the area of approach, with the terrain behind the green falling off, such that the horizon is the putting surface ?

I often think of the 13th hole at Sand Hills.

If, tomorrow, someone planted a spruce behind that green, wouldn't it retain it's skyline qualities in terms of the spacial relationships of the features, the tee, green and land behind the green ?

Belmont CC outside of Boston has a wonderful uphill skyline green.
I believe it might be the 17th hole.  Unfortunately, someone planted evergreens behind the green.
Whether it was to protect golfers on the fairway behind the green or for framing purposes, or both, doesn't matter.  A wonderful approach shot was ruined by the introduction of trees.  If the trees were removed the green would have an appearance similar to the picture you posted.

Hence, I don't believe that trees behind a green disqualify the green as a "skyline" green.  Rather, they merely frustrate the intended use and appearance. .... temporarily.

You are asking me, Patrick?  Heck, I don't know.  I learned about the concept of a skyline green from you and others! 

Ironically, the image I posted is simply a linked image of Ran's.  It's the 11th at Sand Hills.  He actually calls it a "Horizon Green" which I take to mean pretty much the same thing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Dugger,

I liked the use of skyline greens at Sand Hills.

# 1 has a skyline quality to it as you get closer to the green.

# 5 has a similar feel.

I loved # 11 and # 13, both terrific skyline greens.

And, I think # 18 had the feel as well.

Another quality that skyline greens can enjoy is the effect of the wind.

With greens sitting high and little surrounding them, the wind can become more of a factor, thus adding to their allure and challenge.

Many skyline greens, such as the one at Belmont, suffered when the trend to "frame" everything took hold.

Those courses that are fortunate enough to have skyline greens should do everything they can to restore their true nature.  They are a great asset to a golf course.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The opener at the recently NLE Wake Forest GC in NC (though it may actually have a pulse again....as a WF town muni):


The opener at Ken Kavanaugh's Murphy Creek:


#9 at Strantz' Tot Hill Farm is almost skyline:


#6 at Cimarron in Palm Springs:


#7:


The skyline fairway at #6 Pebble Beach (#8 is also one):


Fairway at #4 Kapalua - Plantation:

[Mike McGuire]

Without the posters on this site - Especially Mucci - I don't know when or if I would have figured out how cool a skyline green is. Here is a before photo from my home club.  Not the best angle as it was taken to show how the grass bunker* was recaptured but all i could come up with now.......



The after..... A cool side benefit occurred thats hard to capture in a photo. When you are on the front part of the green looking to the back you get a visual like the vanishing edge swimming pools currently in vogue.

[wsmorrison]

[Dan Herrmann]

Where is that, Wayne? 

[wsmorrison]

Dan,

The answer to your question is....Shinnecock Hills, 11th hole.  Notice how the sand is flashed all the way to the top?  That is not the case today.  Notice how it is a true skyline green?  That is not the case today.  This is partially because of trees off in the distance but also because the tee was raised.  Lowering the tee to the original height will restore the skyline effect.

The next question is, "When is that?"  The answer to that is early 1930s. 

I'm full of it...answers that is 

[Dan Herrmann]

I figured it was Flynn.   Reminds me of the approach to #2 at Pine Valley.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

Since you're full of answers, as opposed to your idiot-savant friend who is just full of it, when will the skyline green at # 11 be restored ?

It would be an incredible hole if it were restored to its original skyline configuration.

And, it wouldn't be an expensive project.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

It is an incredible hole whether or not they do anything at all.  It is my favorite short par 3 in golf and one of the most difficult.  I don't know for certain when it will be restored let alone if it will be restored.  Lowering the tee may be all that is necessary, though a tree management program is ongoing and the results have been spectacular.  I have a strong feeling that it will be along with another restoration of a feature on the hole that you ought to like. 

[Mike Tanner]

Wayne,
I wouldn't want a steady diet of skyline greens, but it is an exciting architectural feature, especially on a par-three hole. I got to see  No. 11 at Shinnecock during the 2004 US Open and it was one of my favorite holes to observe (lots of interest on friendly closest to the pin wagers).
Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Tanner,

It would take more than a unique piece of property to produce a steady diet of Skyline greens.

Sand Hills has the most I've ever seen on one course, and I didn't mind that.

Wayno,

There's no doubt that # 11 is a spectacular hole, sporty, yet challenging beyond belief.
I don't recall the exact yardage, but, at approximately 157 from the back tee, few if any golfers ever conquer it.

Lowering the tee, would seem to reduce the amount of backround pruning or removal necessary to return # 11 to its skyline glory.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You put your foot in your mouth again and proved you don't know squat about Shinnecock and the 11th hole.

Here's the deal though, and from the guy you just called an idiot savant.

If Shinnecock took the level of the 11th tee down app three feet to the level it was before some genius not that long ago said he had a bunch of fill and the club let him use it raise the height of that tee up, that green would be a lot more skyline than it is now. But the problem is----even at that tee's original height you could still see trees behind that green on the right and Shinnecock can't take them all down because they don't own them all. But taking that tee back down to it's original height would be a real improvement on making that green way more skyline than it is now.

But here's the real deal if they wanted a total skyline look on that green----if they took that tee back down to its original height all they need to do is slide the added fill that built it up not that long ago app 15 yards right and into the depression to the right of the tee and VOILA they would have an alternate tee on the right with the most impressive TOTAL skyline green you ever saw. And the additional good news is from that vantage no trees could ever been seen behind that green.

If you ever really want to come to understand golf course architecture, Big Guy, you pretty much need to stick with me! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

You put your foot in your mouth again and proved you don't know squat about Shinnecock and the 11th hole.

Here's the deal though, and from the guy you just called an idiot savant.

If Shinnecock took the level of the 11th tee down app three feet to the level it was before some genius not that long ago said he had a bunch of fill and the club let him use it raise the height of that tee up, that green would be a lot more skyline than it is now.

TEPaul, aka IS,

I know that.[/color]

But the problem is----even at that tee's original height you could still see trees behind that green on the right and Shinnecock can't take them all down because they don't own them all.

Wayno's picture looks like it's taken from more than three (3) feet below the current grade.
Are you positive that the tee was only raised once, and by only three (3) feet.[/b][/color]

But taking that tee back down to it's original height would be a real improvement on making that green way more skyline than it is now.

Agreed, especially for Junior golfers.[/color]

But here's the real deal if they wanted a total skyline look on that green----if they took that tee back down to its original height all they need to do is slide the added fill that built it up not that long ago app 15 yards right and into the depression to the right of the tee and VOILA they would have an alternate tee on the right with the most impressive TOTAL skyline green you ever saw.

But would the angle of attack, in the context of the slope/angle of the putting surface be retained, or would balls be inclined to be deflected rather than stopped by the green as they are now ?[/color]

And the additional good news is from that vantage no trees could ever been seen behind that green.

Then, what are you doing typing on GCA.com when you should be digging dirt in Southampton ?[/color]

If you ever really want to come to understand golf course architecture, Big Guy, you pretty much need to stick with me! 

That's really scary.
By the way, how's old Coorshaw doing ?[/color]

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