[Anthony_Nysse]

Don,
 I didn't mean that overseeding fwys in S Florida was good-Its more of a statement for N. Florida, GA, SC, etc....It's too warm in south Florida, or the less than ideal months for growing good 419 are minumul.
  The greens at Checheessee are too servere to NOT overseed their greens also....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Michael Powers]

The problem with overseeded rye is that dormant bermuda is a superior surface around the green.  Nothing is less fun than trying to hit a high pitch off sticky, wet rye.  If you try to bounce it through the rye, the ball sticks.  I have no problem with greens and tees being overseeded, but keep it off the fairways.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It seems to me that Pat has his mind man up on this topic,


That's true[/color]

so I'm sure whatever I write, won’t matter, though he's not in the golf maintenance business…

Yes, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express the other night.[/color]
 
There are a hundred different reasons why a course would overseed, other than to make a course green. 

Could you name five (5) substantive reasons ?[/color]

First off, many golf courses that I have to overseed have to decide when they won’t their best conditions to be, meaning what the golfer is going to perceive as the best. 

I think that's part of the problem, perception versus reality.
What are "the best conditions" ?
I'd opt for F&F over appearance.[/color]

Courses with in FL, SC, GA or TX don’t get cold enough to close and still get a lot of play.

In my time at Long Cove, we went 3 years without seeding the fairways. This year, they overseeded. Why? The fairways grass at Long Cove was contaminated from years of sodding, overseeding and the natural selection. A lot of common has sneaked back into the fairways. Because of the amount of golf and cart traffic, those fairways were AWFUL come the middle of January. The 419 wouldn’t start growing actively until the middle to end of April, which means the busiest time of the year, when the PGA was in town, the fairways were at their worst.

It's a little cooler in Long Cove and about 444 miles north of Boca Raton, Florida.  Contamination is a seperate, distinct problem that rarely gets better without a drastic solution.[/color]
 
Many resorts don’t have the luxury to NOT overseed-Take Harbour Town for example. That place is a ghost town in the winter, so they accepted the fact that their busy season is going to be on the overseed. The Players Championship changed their date. They now play on a non overseeded course, but it’s green and growing for The Players. They would be brown dormant at the old March date.

I wasn't referencing resort courses, they have a different war camp to contend with.

It's also unfortunate that TV used dyes and filters to make courses appear greener to the viewer, thus deceiving the viewer and creating the perception that lush green is attainable all the time.[/color]
 
Pat, I think that you forget that many people don’t view a golf course like most on this site-we are in the minority. Most people view green as good and could care less about firmness as long as the stripes are straight and the grass is green.

Agreed.
But, the overseeding process "inherently" impedes the ability to get a golf course in south Florida to play F&F.[/color]
 
If I recall, Augusta played VERY firm last year….hmmm that was overseeded. 

That's also 504 miles north of Boca Raton and a heck of a lot further away from the Gulfstream.

I know you're not going to equate Augusta's budget with that of any private or local club in South Florida ..... are you.

Also bear in mind that Augusta is closed from May to October.[/color]

Many courses in Southern Florida shouldnt have to overseed anyways. 


Agreed.
That was my point.
Overseeding impedes the club's ability to produce F&F.[/color]

They can still mow Bermuda 12 months out of the year. Im sure that is their to protect the 419.

Lastly, you’re silly if you think that tees shouldn’t be overseeded. 

Then, call me silly.[/color]

If a course is experiencing 300+ rounds a month and it’s dormant for 3-4 mouths, you’re going to have so holes in your tees.

That's 10 rounds per day.  Throw some sand in the divots and you should have grass there within two weeks.
As to dormancy, with temperatures in the mid-80's I don't know if the Bermuda ever goes dormant.[/color]

Even the low traffic courses overseed their Par 3 tees…...


It would be interesting to research when overseeding started and when it started becoming systemic.

The condition of the tees doesn't affect F&F on the golf course.[/color]

[Chris Cupit]

A question for the supers:

If asthetics played no role in the decision at all, what would be some good reasons to overseed fairways in a transition zone golf course--say in Atlanta?

I have long been "conditioned" to be against overseeding at my course but I just wanted to hear what could be some good agronomic reasons why and Atlanta golf course might overseed.

Thanks.

[John Moore II]

Pat-i would say that overseeding became a systematic thing when people in transition areas realized that they could keep the courses green all year by throwing out some seeds. My super once said, 'Its not that bad to get back to bermuda, just have to use more fertilizer.' Then, once one course uses it, in a resort style area, everyone has to use it so they don't lose business to those courses that do. But in say, Boca or Miami, there is no reason to use overseeding, its simply stupid and a poor expenditure.

--also, could clubs in the S. Fl. area not use paspalum? I know they use it in areas of the Dye course at PGA Village, and it sure seems to stay green in winter, though I haven't yet experienced what it does in summer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

I thought that Jupiter Hills may have used Paspalum, but, I'm not sure.

I recall it being a very "tight" lie, which I liked, but, I'm not sure that the average golfer is fond of a tight lie.

I'm not familiar with its summertime characteristics.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jupiter Hills has paspalum on their tees only. 419 bermuda in the fairways

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Willie_Dow]

Pat - It seems here at the Moorings we use lots of fine sand on the fairways and greens.  The conditions are great, and this surprising seeing we are right on the Indian River.  But, I think Dye saw a big drainage problem when he designed the course, and the use of drainage ditches, and sandy wastelands have successfully made it about as firm and fast as one could expect.  High shots will plug sometimes, but low balls will run.

Yes, it is very green, too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Willie Dow,

Somehow the words "plug" and "fast & firm" seem in conflict with one another.

It's difficult for me to grasp the concept that a green course where balls plug plays Fast & Firm.

What am I missing ?

[John Moore II]

Pat-I think he was trying to say that his course is a firm as is really possible due to the soil conditions. In many ways, F&F is very hard in some parts of SF, since a course built in the Glades will not be able to drain as well as say, Seminole. But the rye generally will have to be watered excessively, especially in warm weather such as is seen in SF.

--Back to the paspallum idea--Does anyone know what its characteristics are in summer when it is very hot? Also, why does this grass not see more extensive use if it holds up well in summer?

[Kyle Harris]

Pat-I think he was trying to say that his course is a firm as is really possible due to the soil conditions. In many ways, F&F is very hard in some parts of SF, since a course built in the Glades will not be able to drain as well as say, Seminole. But the rye generally will have to be watered excessively, especially in warm weather such as is seen in SF.

--Back to the paspallum idea--Does anyone know what its characteristics are in summer when it is very hot? Also, why does this grass not see more extensive use if it holds up well in summer?

Paspalum is very prone to disease on Florida's Gulf Coast. A handful of courses are converting and fungicide apps are almost weekly.

[Anthony_Nysse]

JKM,
  Paspalum is VERY expensive to maintain and if you're water quality is good, there really is not reason to not use Bermudagrass. Beside the fungicide applications, it's had to get a good, quality cut on paspalum, it too can become very graining, it's slow to recover and VERY disease probimatic. Its seems to be very suseptable to brown patch. Having to spray 25-30 arces for brown patch can easily cost over $10,000. Do this twice a month for minumum 6 months....that's expensive. It looks preety, stripes up well, ball sits up well,  but it's not perfect.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Willie_Dow]

Kyle - Speaking of the Gulf Coast, I was over there about a month ago and had a look at Gasparilla, which has been completely redone by Pete Dye.  It looks so much like The Moorings that I felt right at home there.  

I wonder if they are growing paspalum ?  Conditions were very similar to the Moorings course.

[Dean Stokes]

JKM,

I thought that Jupiter Hills may have used Paspalum, but, I'm not sure.

I recall it being a very "tight" lie, which I liked, but, I'm not sure that the average golfer is fond of a tight lie.

I'm not familiar with its summertime characteristics.

Jupiter Hills has Paspallum on it's tees. Old Palm is the only course I know with wall to wall Paspallum.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tuscany Reserve is Naples is wall to wall Paspalum. A lot of courses in the West Palm area are using Paspalum ontheir tees-Old Marsh, The Breaks Rees Jones, as I stated before, Jupitor Hills to name a few. I'm sure there is more....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Willie_Dow]

I didn't mean to imply that The Moorings has paspalum.  We irrigate with reclaimed water, and this might be a problem.

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