[Patrick_Mucci]

Despite phase III drought restrictions in South Florida, many golf courses remain lush, deep green and soft.

Balls continue to leave pitch marks, even on low drives.

Many, if not most, clubs that overseed do so with Rye which requires ....
water, water, water.

As long as clubs overseed I don't see how they can attain fast and firm conditions.  It's an inherent conflict.

Many members from clubs that overseed, when visiting other clubs that don't overseed, upon seeing the brown or brownish/yellowish/greenish turf, comment on the poor conditions they've witnessed, not understanding that those playing surfaces are ideal for golf.

As long as golfers watch TV, admire and want lush green playing surfaces, and direct their superintendents to replicate those conditions, fast and firm conditions and great playing surfaces will never come into play.

There's now a cultural preference for "green"

Superintendents, despite their desire to produce firm and fast conditions, or to achieve the ideal maintainance meld, can't pursue those goals and maintain job security.

There's an inherent conflict that will continue to exist as long as overseeding continues, and that's unfortunate for the play and game of golf.

The "Snow Birds" are to blame

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

So when an accident with a fairway unit happens in November at the beginning of the dormant season for Bermuda and hydraulic oil burns and kills the grass - the superintendent, membership and guests are supposed to deal with a dead spot for 5 months?

It's always good to have something growing, especially in the high stress areas like fairways and tees. Overseeding is done for reasons other than appearance.

Our club is firm, fast and overseeded and has been since November. It's also not green.

Your premise flawed, do your homework next time. How many superintendents who overseed have you spoken with? What are their preferences?

[Dean Stokes]

Kyle,
I have spoken to several Supers who clarified for me that overseeding is purely for asthetics and nothing more. It is a chore that they could do without apparently - also an expensive chore.
I have played plenty of overseeded courses and have yet to see one that is not green.
The shame of overseeding in my view is that bermuda fairways are at their best when dormant. Oh well, the masses MUST have green lush courses or they'll be whining.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
I have spoken to several Supers who clarified for me that overseeding is purely for asthetics and nothing more. It is a chore that they could do without apparently - also an expensive chore.
I have played plenty of overseeded courses and have yet to see one that is not green.
The shame of overseeding in my view is that bermuda fairways are at their best when dormant. Oh well, the masses MUST have green lush courses or they'll be whining.

I'm an assistant superintendent at a golf course that overseeds in Tampa, FL. Maybe your superintendents need to think outside the box and learn how to make rye firm and fast in Florida. Rye will green up when it gets "cool" for Florida just like it does in the spring and fall up north.

What is the extent of the overseeding? What do they mean by "appearance?"

[A.G._Crockett]

I prefer, on balance, that my course here in Georgia NOT overseed.  The first 2 months of dormant bermuda are enjoyable, and the bermuda certainly comes back more quickly when the weather warms up if there is no competition.

That said, by mid-Feb. every winter the quality of play becomes pretty poor.  With no root activity at all, the course becomes really sloppy (even in a drought) and anything but firm and fast if there has been any rain at all.

I think it is a great oversimplification to equate not overseeding with F and F conditions; the reality is much more variable.

[Joe Hancock]

Why do you guys all think ryegrass requires so much more water than other grasses? It can go lean and dry like anything else...it's not the damn grass' fault.

 

[Paul Carey]

Overseeding is valuable for 2 reasons:  1) to make a course green and 2) to grow deep rough.  Both are valid reasons for golf courses to make the masses happy.

If you like firm and fast conditions no overseeding is always preferable. 

I belong to a great club in Florida that overseeds and it is firm and fast.  It would be firmer and faster without the overseed.

 

[John Moore II]

Does it really get cold enough in South Florida for the grass to actually be dormant? I have been here for about a month now and have yet to see a night where there would be frost, so it seems to me that the grass should never be dormant. And how exactly does Rye grass lead to deep rough? maybe a little long, but its certainly not dense. I think overseeding is a very poor use of funds for a golf course in general though.

[Dean Stokes]

Does it really get cold enough in South Florida for the grass to actually be dormant? I have been here for about a month now and have yet to see a night where there would be frost, so it seems to me that the grass should never be dormant. And how exactly does Rye grass lead to deep rough? maybe a little long, but its certainly not dense. I think overseeding is a very poor use of funds for a golf course in general though.

The course I was at that overseeded was in North Florida where it does get cold in Winter. I too was unaware that S Florida courses used overseed as the bermuda never goes dormant.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

So when an accident with a fairway unit happens in November at the beginning of the dormant season for Bermuda and hydraulic oil burns and kills the grass - the superintendent, membership and guests are supposed to deal with a dead spot for 5 months?

Do you realize how absurd your example is in the context of overseeding the entire golf course on the remote chance that a hydraulic hose may rupture ?

And, yes, deal with it, it's not that difficult to deal with an isolated spot, and it's not the end of the agronomic or playing world.[/color]

It's always good to have something growing, especially in the high stress areas like fairways and tees.

Tees aren't high stress areas.
As to fairways, cart traffic tends to be a major stress factor.
Golf courses in Florida did quite well in the off season until northerners began whining for green conditions.[/color]

Overseeding is done for reasons other than appearance.

Name five (5) substantive reasons[/color]

Our club is firm, fast and overseeded and has been since November. It's also not green.

Which course is that ?
How do you explain the difference in conditions between this course and your former course, Mountain Lake, which also overseeds with Rye ?[/color]

Your premise flawed,

The overwhelming evidence in South Florida says it's not[/color]

do your homework next time.

Bob Huntley can educate you on the context in which I pose a question or put forth a premise as it relates to "doing my homework"[/color]

How many superintendents who overseed have you spoken with ?


More than a few.
And, I greatly respect each and every one.[/color]

What are their preferences ?

I was hoping you would gleen that from my thread.[/color]

[Kyle Harris]

Does it really get cold enough in South Florida for the grass to actually be dormant? I have been here for about a month now and have yet to see a night where there would be frost, so it seems to me that the grass should never be dormant. And how exactly does Rye grass lead to deep rough? maybe a little long, but its certainly not dense. I think overseeding is a very poor use of funds for a golf course in general though.

We've had half dozen or so frost delays at my place since December 1.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

So when an accident with a fairway unit happens in November at the beginning of the dormant season for Bermuda and hydraulic oil burns and kills the grass - the superintendent, membership and guests are supposed to deal with a dead spot for 5 months?

Do you realize how absurd your example is in the context of overseeding the entire golf course on the remote chance that a hydraulic hose may rupture ?

And, yes, deal with it, it's not that difficult to deal with an isolated spot, and it's not the end of the agronomic or playing world.[/color]

It's always good to have something growing, especially in the high stress areas like fairways and tees.

Tees aren't high stress areas.
As to fairways, cart traffic tends to be a major stress factor.
Golf courses in Florida did quite well in the off season until northerners began whining for green conditions.[/color]

Overseeding is done for reasons other than appearance.

Name five (5) substantive reasons[/color]

Our club is firm, fast and overseeded and has been since November. It's also not green.

Which course is that ?
How do you explain the difference in conditions between this course and your former course, Mountain Lake, which also overseeds with Rye ?[/color]

Your premise flawed,

The overwhelming evidence in South Florida says it's not[/color]

do your homework next time.

Bob Huntley can educate you on the context in which I pose a question or put forth a premise as it relates to "doing my homework"[/color]

How many superintendents who overseed have you spoken with ?


More than a few.
And, I greatly respect each and every one.[/color]

What are their preferences ?

I was hoping you would gleen that from my thread.[/color]

We had 6 hydraulic hoses rupture in my time at Mountain Lake, one was on a complete pass right across the 10th fairway. It happens more frequently than you think, but is probably not noticeable to you because, that's right, the fairways are overseeded. I guess you won't be needing the airbag in your car in case of the remote chance you get in an accident....  It's not just about that once occurrence, but all sorts of possible damage that could occur. We just had vandals paint two phallic masterpieces in our 6th fairway that would be burned into the grass until June if not for rye overseed.

Tees are high stress because they are cut at approximately .500 3-4 times a week usually and receive high foot traffic - if they weren't high stress tee blocks wouldn't need to be moved all that frequently. Anything cut that short is prone to disease and drought stress.

I can explain the difference with Mountain Lake from your weekend there in January because we've had one of the wettest Januaries in recent times and also had a rain storm that dumped about 5 inches of rain on Tampa and a little more than that in Lake Wales a few days prior to your visit to Mountain Lake. When it gets cool and wet, rye grass will be green.

Pat, I firmly believe your problem isn't with overseeding - it's with the same practices that make golf courses in the north wet and overwatered.

[Joe Hancock]

We just had vandals paint two phallic masterpieces in our 6th fairway that would be burned into the grass until June if not for rye overseed.
 

The pricks.....

Joe

[Don_Mahaffey]

My qualifications to speak on this subject...I overseeded golf courses in the SW for 12 straight years. The first 7 wall to wall, the last 5 we didn't overseed roughs.
Anyone that comes here and says that an overseeded golf course plays as firm and fast as a non-overseeded course is just plain ignorant.

Overseed is done primarily for color as the tourists will not play a brown course. If your course is busy, I can understand overseeding tees, and certainly greens if you have bermuda. Other than that, it’s all about the look.

And Kyle, you can buy sod all year round, and 6 frost delays in the winter is nothing. I'll bet that courses in your area never even went completely dormant this year. We had 5 frosts and one hard freeze and never went all the way off, and we're green now. I overseeded two fairways that I didn't sprig until late December (for erosion control) and I wish I never had put down the seed, as those I sprigged just a week before I'm now mowing at .700.

I used to argue that overseed improved playability in the winter, I no longer feel that way and if left up to me, I'll never do it again...save for very high traffic area like tees.

[JohnH]

Many members from clubs that overseed, when visiting other clubs that don't overseed, upon seeing the brown or brownish/yellowish/greenish turf, comment on the poor conditions they've witnessed, not understanding that those playing surfaces are ideal for golf.

Superintendents, despite their desire to produce firm and fast conditions, or to achieve the ideal maintainance meld, can't pursue those goals and maintain job security.

Please.  Ideal playing surfaces and ideal maintenance meld according to who, you Pat?  I appreciate your opinion, but I'm certain you realize there are millions who don't follow your logic.

[David_Madison]

Even if an overseeded course eventually firms up, there's still that two or three week time period right after seeding when the course has to be kept pretty wet for all that grass seed to germinate. Second, doesn't the overseeding retard the return of the bermuda to health, strength, and playing quality the following spring? I've also heard that the negative impact on the bermuda increases over time.

[mike_beene]

In Dallas, which I am sure is colder than the areas you guys are talking about, our 419's are halfway to green already. Seems like the dormant season is three months maximum.

[Jimbo]

You are absolutely right Pat.   

[Don_Mahaffey]

Even if an overseeded course eventually firms up, there's still that two or three week time period right after seeding when the course has to be kept pretty wet for all that grass seed to germinate. Second, doesn't the overseeding retard the return of the bermuda to health, strength, and playing quality the following spring? I've also heard that the negative impact on the bermuda increases over time.

The best time of year in the desert, IMO, is the fall. Late October days can be just about as good as it gets, but the golf courses are usually closed or slow and wet.


Spring transition is a lot easier now because of modern chemistry, but it's still a pain and yes the rye does retard the bermuda. Anyone who doesn't think the rye hurts the bermuda should count the sod trucks in the summer driving into any region where a heavy overseed is the norm.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Please. 
Ideal playing surfaces and ideal maintenance meld according to who, you Pat? 

I'd say ideal conditions according to anyone with a brain for golf and prefered playing conditions.

Golfers who don't think that plugged balls or balls within five feet of their pitch marks on a drive are the conditions of choice for ideal golf.

Golfers who appreciate alternative methods of play and not "dart board" golf[/color]

I appreciate your opinion, but I'm certain you realize there are millions who don't follow your logic.

Of course I realize that, that's why I started this thread.
It's not that they don't follow my logic, they just don't  understand the price they pay for lush emerald green golf courses.

Ask one, or all of the millions you reference if they'd like to hit the ball 20-40 yards farther.

Then ask them if they'd be willing to gain additional yardage in return for less than lush green conditions.

As more and more clubs begin to feel the financial crunch, I wonder how overseeding will fare as a line item in Green Budgets.  Clubs populated by Snow Birds will probably be willing to pay the price since most aren't around during the typical transition phases around October and May.

When golfers understand the issues of aesthetics versus playability, when playability directly affects them, golfers typically opt for playability.  Part of the problem is that most golfers don't understand the "playability" price they pay for lush green conditions.

One of the reasons that 419 replaced Common and Ormond Bermuda was the color C & OB turned when it went dormant.  While those familiar with Bermudas understood its off season characteristics, which were more than acceptable for golf, it was the Snow Birds that found it most objectionable.

The two transition phases are horrible and overseeding creates demands that are inherently counter to producing F & F conditions.

But, the issue is how overseeding inherently IMPEDES F & F conditions.

Recently, I watched some young golfers aged 8-10 play golf.
Time and time again their drives hit and stuck.
I couldn't help but think how much more fun they would have had had they been able to get a good deal of roll on their tee shots and every other shot.

I also watched shot after shot hit short of the green and stay there.

You may like to hit Lob wedges from 2-5 yards off the green, I prefer 6-irons or putting, and I'm sure those kids felt as I did.   It makes the game more interesting, unless you prefer "dart golf" [/color]

[JohnH]

Assume much, Pat?

[John Moore II]

Pat--I was really hoping for you to say something that I disagree with so we can start up our sprited discussions again. But you have not so far. I certainly think overseeding is a huge impediment to F&F conditions on golf courses, not just in S Florida, but everywhere. It is simply foolish to overseed courses. Unless perhaps the course is naturally 'swampy' and the root system of the rye or bluegrass could work to dry away some of the moisture, however, that only applies in climates where the bermuda is dormant in winter. In South Florida, is is not dormant. At least not in Port St. Lucie.

[Anthony_Nysse]

It seems to me that Pat has his mind man up on this topic, so I'm sure whatever I write, won’t matter, though he's not in the golf maintenance business…
  There are a hundred different reasons why a course would overseed, other than to make a course green.  First off, many golf courses that I have to overseed have to decide when they won’t their best conditions to be, meaning what the golfer is going to perceive as the best.  Courses with in FL, SC, GA or TX don’t get cold enough to close and still get a lot of play. In my time at Long Cove, we went 3 years without seeding the fairways. This year, they overseeded. Why? The fairways grass at Long Cove was contaminated from years of sodding, overseeding and the natural selection. A lot of common has sneaked back into the fairways. Because of the amount of golf and cart traffic, those fairways were AWFUL come the middle of January. The 419 wouldn’t start growing actively until the middle to end of April, which means the busiest time of the year, when the PGA was in town, the fairways were at their worst.
  Many resorts don’t have the luxury to NOT overseed-Take Harbour Town for example. That place is a ghost town in the winter, so they accepted the fact that their busy season is going to be on the overseed. The Players Championship changed their date. They now play on a non overseeded course, but it’s green and growing for The Players. They would be brown dormant at the old March date.
  Pat, I think that you forget that many people don’t view a golf course like most on this site-we are in the minority. Most people view green as good and could care less about firmness as long as the stripes are straight and the grass is green.
  If I recall, Augusta played VERY firm last year….hmmm that was overseeded.  Many courses in Southern Florida shouldnt have to overseed anyways.  They can still mow Bermuda 12 months out of the year. Im sure that is their to protect the 419.
Lastly, you’re silly if you think that tees shouldn’t be overseeded.  If a course is experiencing 300+ rounds a month and it’s dormant for 3-4 mouths, you’re going to have so holes in your tees. Even the low traffic courses overseed their Par 3 tees…...

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tony,
I agree with you that many resorts have to overseed. They simply have no choice as that is what their guests demand. But, that doesn't mean it automatically makes the course better. I don't think it does, and if ever given the choice I will lobby hard not to overseed anything but the high traffic areas.
You are dead on about overseeding tees, without overseeding most tees would be dirt by spring and in that case their is no doubt in my mind that the rye does protect the bermuda. But, you lost me when you wrote that overseeding fwys in S FL protects the 419. All the problems you mentioned at Long Cove are most likely the result of years of overseeding. From contaminated seed to openings in the turf during spring transition to not being able to pre-emerge as aggressively as you'd like; I just don't see how overseeding fwys and roughs in an area with a short dormant period makes any sense at all.

[Peter Nomm]

I played Chechessee Creek in December and spoke for a minute with their super - they overseed the fairways, but at a very low rate.  It adds just enough color to both differentiate from the non-overseeded rough and appeal to the general esthetics.  But by no means was it emerald green.  It looked a lot like the green in the GCA website logo (perhaps a wise color choice by Ran ).

It was generally firm, but I imagine not as fast as it could have been.  To me it was a good balance between the two.

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