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JMorgan

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Best Player-Designer Courses
« on: February 20, 2008, 05:34:11 PM »
In your opinion, which course stands out as the best design for each of the following player-designers:

Jack Nicklaus
Arnold Palmer
Gary Player
Tom Weiskopf
Peter Aliss
Greg Norman
Ben Crenshaw
Tom Watson
Tom Kite
Curtis Strange
Christy O'Connor
Ian Woosnam
Nick Faldo
Mark O'Meara
Peter Jacobsen
Ernie Els
Colin Montgomerie

... and then rank them. 

Being mindful of the adage that quantity does not necessarily equate with quality, which three designer pros have the best overall portfolios? 

What attributes have contributed to their successes?


« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 07:51:17 PM by JMorgan »

Brian Cenci

Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2008, 06:50:43 PM »
Well of the ones I've played my favorite would probably be:

* Peter Jacobson - Hammock Bay (Marco Island, FL) - a great course and very underated.
* Tom Weiskopf - Forest Dunes (Roscommon, MI) - one of the top 5 public courses in Michigan and second to none as far as conditioning in the state
* Arnold Palmer - Wolf Creek (Mesquite, NV) - I could be wrong but I thought he is credited with some of the design.  I unique course that I really loved.
* Ben Crenshaw - Bandon Trails (Bandon, OR) - top notch...one of the top 15 public courses in the U.S.
* Jack Nicklaus - Old Works (Anaconda, MT) - I've played 6 or 7 Nicklaus' and I'm not a huge fan...this is probably my favorite of what he's done and I've played

Jay Flemma

Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2008, 07:04:47 PM »
Nice Brian!  I agree on both Old Works and Forest Dunes.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2008, 07:25:14 PM »
For the few Greg Norman courses I have played, National Golf Club  (Moonah), is outstanding.

Jack Nicklaus, I have only played 2 but would recommend Kinloch in New Zealand to anybody who would like to play a championship course.

Andy Troeger

Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2008, 07:47:37 PM »
Nicklaus--Castle Pines (I consider Harbour Town a Pete Dye course...although CP might be slightly ahead anyway). Sycamore Hills and Desert Highlands probably fall next of what I've seen (8 cses total)

Weiskopf--Forest Highlands Canyon by a fair margin, then The Rim and Seven Canyons ahead of Double Eagle.

Haven't played that many by any of the others...

Crenshaw--Colorado GC over WKP Saguaro and Warren

Palmer--only played Tartan Fields

Watson--Spanish Bay is better than Conservatory at Hammock Beach IMO

Order (first three VERY close)
1. Castle Pines
2. Forest Highlands Canyon
3. Colorado GC

BIG GAP--nothing wrong with these last two but nowhere near the first three which are all top 100 level IMO.

4. Spanish Bay
5. Tartan Fields


Like many here I'm very impressed with Coore/Crenshaw even though I haven't seen much of their most highly regarded work. They do solid designs, although Warren and Talking Stick North weren't the most exciting properties ever.

I actually like most of what I've seen from Nicklaus as well. The courses are tough but they provide interesting challenges that seem to vary from course to course.

Weiskopf has had some amazing visual pieces to work with in Arizona, many with Jay Morrish. Forest Highlands to me is his best "design" in terms of making the golf course interesting to go along with the land. The Rim and especially Seven Canyons are so beautiful that the course itself can get a little lost if you know what I mean  :D  Not sure that's a design flaw, Sedona is an amazing place.

Can't really comment on the other two from 1-2 courses.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2008, 07:59:02 PM »
Nicklaus- Muirfield Village     C&C-Sand hills, Cuscawilla    Palmer-Bayhill  Watson- Spanish Bay   

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2008, 08:35:25 PM »
Wait a minute...Brauer and I have played golf before...where are we on the list ???
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 08:42:37 PM »
Wait a minute...Brauer and I have played golf before...where are we on the list ???

Forrest, you and Jeff don't play that kind of golf.  Sorry.  But I'm sure your mothers still considered you both special. [Big emoticon smiley here.]

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2008, 08:53:36 PM »
How do you know we do not have the same mother?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2008, 09:04:03 PM »
That would explain why you guys always argue and try to embarrass one another at ASGCA meetings.  Now it all makes sense ... .

Ryan Farrow

Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2008, 10:43:18 PM »
If Old Works is one of Nicklaus's best then I would hate to see.... well, any others. Somebody set the record straight and tell me its not even near his top 10.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2008, 11:12:31 PM »
Palmer - Tralee, Ireland

Weiskopf - I second Brian's pick - Forest Dunes, MI

Nicklaus - (NOT!) The Bear, MI
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2008, 12:29:08 AM »
Only the courses I have played

Jack Nicklaus------Muirfield Village
Arnold Palmer-----Musgrove Mill
Gary Player--------Floridian
Tom Weiskopf-----Loch Lomond
 Tom Kite----------Liberty National
Greg Norman-------Red Sky Ranch
Ben Crenshaw-----Sand Hills
Tom Watson--------Cassique
Peter Alliss---------The Belfry (with Dave Thomas)
Christy O'Connor---Mount Wolsey

Nick Faldo-----------Chart Hills
 
Peter Jacobsen----Shadow Isle
 
Colin Montgomerie--Carton House
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 12:43:23 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2008, 04:48:23 AM »
I know it's not really the point but that list is so varied to mean nothing...

...there are some names on it who are full time designers with their own teams... and there are others who are figurehead "names" for hire where the design is done by various full time GCA's appointed along with them...


Andy Troeger

Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2008, 08:35:53 AM »
If Old Works is one of Nicklaus's best then I would hate to see.... well, any others. Somebody set the record straight and tell me its not even near his top 10.

Ryan,
I've not played Old Works, but seems like the consensus is that Nicklaus' best in the USA include Muirfield Village, Castle Pines, Mayacama, Sycamore Hills, May River, and Valhalla probably amongst others I've forgotten.

If you include collaborations you can add Sebonack, Harbour Town, and Concession.

That's not to mention courses like Ocean Hammock, Desert Highlands and the Desert Mountain courses, so I would think Old Works at best falls in with this group based on ratings and such.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2008, 09:58:46 AM »
I know it's not really the point but that list is so varied to mean nothing...

...there are some names on it who are full time designers with their own teams... and there are others who are figurehead "names" for hire where the design is done by various full time GCA's appointed along with them...



Ally, which pro designers would you remove based on your last category -- names for hire? And how do those courses differ, if at all, from the courses designed by the full-time guys?

Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2008, 12:05:37 PM »
Ryan, I enjoy Old Works but I'll agree with you that it isn't anywhere near Nicklaus' best.  In fact, it is my 11th favorite Nicklaus course behind these others I've played:

1.  Castle Pines
2.  Sherwood
3.  Mayacama
4.  Pronghorn
5.  TPC Snoqualmie Ridge
6.  Lochinvar
7.  Carlton Woods
8.  Reflection Bay
9.  Pasadera
10.  C.C. of the Rockies

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2008, 12:51:23 PM »
I never thought of it before, but I wonder if any one person has played all of the Nicklaus designs?

Anyway, the field as to his designs is pretty crowded, with Muirfield, et al; I just wondered if any of you might possibly put Colleton River on the list?

Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2008, 06:45:20 PM »
Would Kinloch in Richmond, VA count for Vinny Giles?
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2008, 08:43:06 PM »
In your opinion, which course stands out as the best design for each of the following player-designers:

Jack Nicklaus- Muirfield Village (although I suspect Muirhead had more of a hand than he did)
Arnold Palmer- Tralee
Gary Player- Pacific Golf Club (May it rest in peace. This one's for you Spaulding! ;))
Tom Weiskopf- Loch Lomond
Peter Aliss- don't know, maybe Rosemont??
Greg Norman- Doonbeg
Ben Crenshaw- Sandhills, Friars Head
Tom Watson- Spanish Bay
Tom Kite- don't know
Curtis Strange- who cares
Christy O'Connor- not sure
Ian Woosnam-?
Nick Faldo- Marriot Shadowridge
Mark O'Meara- ?
Peter Jacobsen- Cypress Ridge
Ernie Els- ?
Colin Montgomerie-?

... and then rank them. 

Being mindful of the adage that quantity does not necessarily equate with quality, which three designer pros have the best overall portfolios? 

What attributes have contributed to their successes?



"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Brian Cenci

Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2008, 09:58:17 PM »
I liked Tennessee National near Knoxville as a Norman and for a residential course it's not bad...but again, that's the only Norman I've played.

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2008, 10:06:34 PM »
I'm going to throw in Westfields as a Freddie Couples course (at least his picture is on the scorecard).  It's a very nicely laid out public in Clifton, VA right outside Fairfax and about 20 minutes from DC.

Brian Cenci

Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2008, 10:06:41 PM »
If Old Works is one of Nicklaus's best then I would hate to see.... well, any others. Somebody set the record straight and tell me its not even near his top 10.

Ryan,
     I haven't played that many Nicklaus', just because I'm not a huge fan of them.  I've only played: Bull at Pinehurst Farms, Desert Mountain - Outlaw, Desert Mountain - Chirichua, Old Works, TPC Dearborn & Grand Traverse Resort (Bear).  Of those, I change my vote and I'd say I like Desert Mountain - Outlaw course the best.

-Brian

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2008, 10:18:34 PM »
I enjoy playing Davis Loves courses quite a bit....but somehow it seems he's missed the cut ;).
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Glenn Spencer

Re: Best Player-Designer Courses
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2008, 11:59:16 PM »
How about Carter Plantation by David Toms?

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