[David Stamm]

To comment on how much one architect cares when compared to another is ignorant and irresponsible.    Let's limit ourselves to discussing the work as it has been done and not how we wish the flavor of the week got the job.  I wish my brother got the job, who gives a shit.

Ignorant and irrresponisble? How so? I do in fact look at the course as it is now, becasue that's the reality. It is a great, great course.   But I would hardly call Hanse a flavor of the week.  

Why do you think Hanse cares more about Riviera than Fazio?  Have you ever talked to either about the course?  Do you think Fazio needed the job for his resume?  Do you think he needs the money?  What has Hanse ever done that would lead you to believe that he cares more?  What has Hanse ever done that is more important than the work Fazio did at Merion?

Because of the way Hanse speaks about the GA in his writings. He has the utmost respect and reverance for the designs of that time. I really don't care why Fazio got the job, although I would venture to guess that it's because his name is "known". You cite Merion, and I'm not sure why, but if you are pointing to his past work as why he should have it, I'll do the same for why he shouldn't ie Inverness. And I really don't know or care if he needs the money, although if we are going to go down the road of espousing things that have nothing to do with the subject at hand like money,  I would say that Hanse would've done the job for less money than TF.

[tlavin]

Joe,

You're a superintendent if I am not mistaken, so perhaps you can appreciate more than most how a course can be maintained even with less than ideal grasses to overcome the negatives.  I don't know for a fact that LACC fights the kikuyu or that the infestation is any less, but the ball definitely rolled much better there.  I played them in back-to-back days and I don't think that there had been much rain in prior days.  There are other reasons that I prefered LACC-North: more varied topography and firmer, faster conditions among them.

Terry,

Are the two par threes on the back not rather repetitive?   Other than the most unusual bunker in the middle of #6, what speaks for #6?

I do agree with your take on the bunkering.  If it was better before, it must have been really, really great.  It is indeed a very special place.  Playing up #18 is quite an experience (I can just imagine Hogan leaning forward trying to get up the hill). 

Lou,

The par 3's on the back are similar, but 16 is a difficult and well bunkered hole with a number of hairy hole locations.  You mentioned #6 and said "other than the most unusual bunker in the middle" of the green...Well, you simply can't take that out of the equation.  It's an eloquent example of the genius of the architect in taking a small piece of dead-level corner property and turning it into one of the most noteworthy short holes in America.

I'm sure you're as anxious as I am for the Hanse/Shackelford restoration of LACC.  It is already one of the most amazing golf properties in America and quite possibly the most valuable piece of inland golf real estate.  It will be something even more special, I'm quite sure.

[David Stamm]

Why Hanse and not Forrest Richardson.  Why doesn't anyone say...Gee, I wish Forrest had got that job instead of Fazio.  I bet Forrest really, really cares.  How ignorant and irresponsible is that?

Because, nothing personal, I think Gil is a better architect than Forrest. This isn't about whether TF cares about the work itself, it's about whether he cares about GT's original design at Riviera. I think he's demonstrated in the past how he approaches the work of others and says so in his book.

[David Stamm]

    Don't you think drainage plays far too an important role at Riviera to trust it with unproven talent in that regard?  

And BTW John, if TF is so much more experienced than Hanse at handling drainage, what are we to make of the massive work at Pelican Hill in Newport Beach that just took place to address this very same problem when the course was barely 16 years old?

[TEPaul]

John Kavanaugh:

Why Hanse and not Fazio or even Forrest Richardson on here?

Because Gil Hanse is a very popular guy on here. If you have a problem with that then tough shit to you too. 

I talk up Gil Hanse on here all the time. Why do I do that? I do it because I like his architecture and he's also a very smart guy because he sends me a case of really good red every year to talk him up on here. Do you have a problem with bribery too? If so tough shit again. It is only right and proper that I should be able to get really good free red wherever I can get it!

[Joe Hancock]

....... because he sends me a case of really good red every year to talk him up on here. Do you have a problem with bribery too? If so tough shit again.

Helpful tip...I learn  something new here every day.

Describe "really good"....does that mean it has a cool, funky name and a pretty logo? I think I can get some stuff at the local grocer for $4.99/ 1.5 liter bottle, and it's got a weird colored animal holding a fork for a logo...it has to be really good.....

 

[David Stamm]

Note to self: Tom is easliy swayed by a good red. Hmmm. 2004 Stag's Leap Merlot?   

[TEPaul]

"Describe "really good"...."

Ok, but don't insult me with any $4.99 1.5 liter red. Double that to $9.98 and we can do some business. I'll even talk up Tom Fazio on here but he has to send me at least a case of the Lancer 2007 Special Edition red that's going for $19.99 a 1.5 liter bottle. Or alternatively, he could get me two cases of the $9.98 stuff.

[Joe Hancock]

Note to self: Tom is easliy swayed by a good red. Hmmm. 2004 Stag's Leap Merlot?   

"Ah yes, but no more 1966. Lets splurge! Bring us some fresh
wine! The freshest you've got - this year! No more of this old
stuff."

-Navin Johnson

[Tim Pitner]

I am not drinking any f***ing Merlot.  

[TEPaul]

David:

Oh God no, I don't need any red that good.

That Navin Johnson is one smart guy in my book. You sure won't see me buying any milk that was made last year, so I think Navin has a great point about fresh wine. I'm no idiot and I just can't understand why some people actually want to pay more for old wine. People who are that dumb probably want to pay three times more for a 75 year old hooker when they can get a 25 year old one for one third the price.

[Kalen Braley]

Guys, guys,

Put down the wine bottle and hoist one of these:

[David Stamm]

I am not drinking any f***ing Merlot.  

Tim, did you drink and type??

[Joe Hancock]

That's some damn snobby beer......

Looks like it would go well with the tilapia I'm cooking tonight, but since I don't have any of that snobby beer, I'll go with a less snobby Pinot Grigio....which, I believe, is a traditional wine at Riviera. (Cheap attempt to get back to the subject at hand)

Joe

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Is that stuff in the glass in that photo beer?

Damn, that fooled me. It looks a lot like some of that really good chardonnay red Forrest Richardson sent me a case of.

[David Druzisky]

LACC has bermuda.

Riviera is one of my all time favorites!  Being a west coast guy I have studied it quite a bit over the years.  The Kikuyu is awful.  All those great "nursing slopes are rendered insignificant wich is really unfortunate as I believe the 3rd dimension around the greens was a strength of Mr. Thomas within his work.  I have hit shots into those slopes on purpose and have just felt so let down when the ball didn't kick as intended.  Heck, I even knew it wouldn't work and I still did it just in hopes of experiencing what Thomas envisioned.

I will say though, you have to wonder if in some way it has been a blessing in that maybe if the kikuyu didn't invade, the course would have been tweaked and messed up over time in reaction to new length that the kikuyu to some degree has mitigated.

David,  

I think some of the issues at Pelican are more related to the decission to overseed the course at some point.  My father was the golf course superintendent there when both courses were built.  He kept it firm and fast with a good lean stand of Bermuda.  It was a pretty tough challenge being located on the coast and "June gloom" keeping the place sunless for long periods of time.  Cool coastal influence, limited sun and tons of play is a tough formula in any situation.  He leaned towards good playing conditions.  I hop some of you CA residents remember how different the place was in its early years.

There were inconsistencies in the topsoils in areas but they seemed to be able to keep them managed well enough.  He resisted a growing pressure to water more and over seed the place in the name of "greening it up".  The place was getting big greens fees and I think the thought was "for that kind of money it needs to be greener."  The greens had no poa for all those early years.  The drainge worked great too as far as I remember as there was enough surface slope and the Fazio guys know how to do that kind of stuff very well too.  As far as bunker deteriorating and such I have no idea why other than they are very ornate and crafted and all bunkers need re-building or at least re-vamping every 10 years or so.

[Tim Pitner]

I am not drinking any f***ing Merlot.  

Tim, did you drink and type??

David,

Since Riviera was being discussed, I thought a Sideways reference would be appropriate.  I'm a big fan of Santa Barbara wine country; I've never played Riviera.

[David Kelly]

If a first time visitor to Riviera did not know or was not told about the alternate fairways on #8 I doubt that they would have any idea that the left fairway was part of the hole.

[rjsimper]

If a first time visitor to Riviera did not know or was not told about the alternate fairways on #8 I doubt that they would have any idea that the left fairway was part of the hole.

That is absolutely true.  Even knowing about the left one, standing on the tee I recall thinking to myself why would anyone ever hit it over there. 

[David Stamm]

Ryan, if I'm not mistaken, GT's original tee was more to the left than it is now before it was wiped out by the flood. I'm sure at that time the tee shot would have required more thought than it does now and going left might have looked more appealing depending on the pin position. But I agree with both you and David, standing there now and going left would probably not even register.

[Bob_Huntley]

As an old Riviera member I have not played the course since I left in the mid-seventies.

I have not seen the changes made over the last thirty odd years since. What I do remember, was that it was the course in Los Angeles that gave me more pleasure than that of any other, Yes, I played LACC every Friday with in-laws and found it to be challenging and pleasurable. The ninth hole and eleventh holes were just superb par threes and the whole layout was a challenge. The modified second and eighth holes were a disappointment. No matter, Riviera was a joy on every occasion that I walked the turf. My house was at the back of the twelth tee and in the evenings I would walk down and play a few holes in the twilight. It was as near to Brigadoon as you could get.

I can think of rounds with a crew of actors and  members that could fill a story book. Seeing Sandy Koufax practicing for hours on the range, witnessing Rita Hayworth taking a lesson from Mac Hunter, and having been introduced to Don Rickles on the first tee and saying to him in a plummy English accent, "It's a pleasure to meet you, his immediate reply, "Hey, are you some sort of English faggot", all come to mind.

But apart from the personalities of the club, the course itself was just an absolute joy to play. I think the only dull hole out there wwas number 14.


Bob

[Lou_Duran]

Bob,

You have led a fabulous life.  I fully understand your affection for the course.  Some of my more enjoyable golf has been after a hard day's work in the evening when not a soul was around.  The course itself couldn't hold a candle to Riviera or Rustic Canyon for that matter, but the experience was outstanding nonetheless.

If you found #14 dull, what did you think of #1?  It is the first shot of the day, there is OB left, and there can be quite a bit of commotion around the fee, but is it much of a hole?

How about the bunker in the middle of the green on #6?  Is this good design or just quirk for its own sake?  I suspect Jeff Quiney thinks it is a great hole.

 

[David Stamm]

Lou, not to speak for Bob, but the boomerang green makes that hole, IMHO. It is one of the coolest greens I've ever seen.

[Bill_McBride]

I got real excited when I saw Chad Campbell use the upper right slope to putt around the bunker from the front of the green to a back hole location.   Very cool...

[Bob_Huntley]

Lou,

How can I not have the greatest affection for the hole? I aced it from 175yards with a five iron.

That in itself is an interesting story. Mac Hunter at Riviera had a policy of collecting cards reporting an ace and keeping it in a huge book. Years later having moved North I needed the card to get a Certificate of  a Hole in One from the Northern California Golf Association to go along with a couple of others.

I went to the Pro Shop, made my request and without further ado, I was presented with the card.

I have much affection for the place.

Bob

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