[Lynn_Shackelford]

Guys, let me help you some.
1.  Kikuyu was brought not as McCord and others think for the polo fields, but to stabilize the hillsides surrounding the course.  It spread to the polo fields and everyone front yard in Pacific Palisades.
Wouldn't it have been something to play #4 before the kikuyu.
2.  Kikuyu can play F&F in winter months with cold nights, but the damp air and moderate summers prevent it from playing F&F in the summer when it is growing.
3.  Riviera looks different today with the Fazio bunker look.
4.  Marzolf green enlargement is very un-Thomas like, especially the back of #1, #3, #17 and #9.  They mostly just fall off.
5.  The 8th hole and especially the green just don't fit into the scheme of things.
6.  Due to its balance of holes and its routing, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
7. Kikuyu subtracts from it greatness, but adds length to help defend it in today's game.
Is there a better course with better climate 365 days a year?  No.
John Kirk, there was a good story in a recent SI about Vance Walhberg.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, I don't think what I prefer is germane to what exists. Why would I expect any course to fit my preferences, except one that I chose to join because it fits my ideal? I prefer the challenge of dealing with what's in front of me, no matter where I am or what grass is planted.
 If I had to decide, for a club, to have a many a lifelong fight eradicating the stuff, adding up those costs, I would settle with what Mother Nature provides. Poa and Kikuyu thrive in those coastal climes. Why fight it?

For the record, I prefer the John Kirk theory of what constitutes the most fun. More run out. Barring that, I still have to deal with a saturated or slower canvas on occasion.

That was a hypothetical.  "If you had your choice..."   

[Steve Burrows]

It should also be noted that, apart from the concept that kikuyu grass is good for polo fields, on account of it's virtual indestructablility, the grass was also imported as a means to stabilize the barranca wall.  Prior to the Army Corps installation of the "underground river," the sides of the barranca were subject to massive erosion during rain events, and kikuyu was thought to be able to withstand these forces.  Obviously, though, this type of grass is one of the most vicious invasives known to the turf world, and subsequently spread to the bulk of the golf course grounds. 

I used to work at Riviera and I remember one time when we were transporting some sod from one area of the course to another after the tournament was gone.  We cut a bunch one afternoon, but did not finish moving it all that afternoon.  We came back the next day, and it had already re-rooted itself!

As far as the golf course itself, it is one of the most special places in all the world.  Much of the recent work is not being done with any historical relevance (e.g., there is no evidence to support the bold alteration of bunker and green complex on the 17th hole), but this does not destroy the character of the golf course, at least in my mind.  I do wish, however, that they would come to a conclusion with respect to the end product of all of their current work.  It still seems a bit piecemeal to me.

[David Federman]

Query- didn't Mickelson play up the left side fairway on #8 on Sunday and gave himself the best look at birdie of the three players? The commentators really didn't explain how he did it- whether he curved it around or went over the trees. It did look rather problematic to use the left fairway from the tees the pros were using. There was no discussion of how he did it and I don't think they used a shot from the blimp either.

[TEPaul]

LynnS:

In your mind what would the ideal tree situation be at Riviera?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Tom, the tree situtation isn't too bad at present.  They spend a fortune tree trimming and have kept it under control.
I would say they could take out about 10 trees on each hole and it would be about right.
About 10 years ago, Paul Latshaw was the only one with guts/clout to do so.  It helped with light on 9th and 10th greens.  Members couldn't believe he was taking out trees behind the 9th green.  They said the course was going to become too easy.  It looked much better and I introduced myself to Latshaw and said I was one member who supported him to keep it up.
His reply was, "yeah you don't have trees on a football field do you?"
Removing trees are a problem with the Japanese ownership, one of many problems.

[John Kavanaugh]

LynnS:

In your mind what would the ideal tree situation be at Riviera?

One with Fazio hanging from it.  In all seriousness I think Riviera is the best smelling course I have ever played thanks to the eucalyptus trees.  You also can not fault the strategic elements of the trees on 13 and 18.  What do you want anyway...cut down the Bogart tree?  

[David Stamm]

I will agree with Simps, without getting into the "what it used to be" argument, all I can comment on is what the course is now, which is all-world IMHO. I had the same feeling as John Kirk when I arrived and looked down at the property. Something very, very special was about to be experienced. It totally exceeded my high expectations. There are some holes that tv coverage misses that are just great, like 2, that unless you go to the tourney or play you'll never get to see. 3 is also another that gets missed that is really good. Would Fazio have been my choice to work on the course? No, but it seems to me from photos over the years that alot of the Bell artistry had eroded away and Fazio didn't "ruin" anything per se in terms of the bunkers. However, I would have much rather have seen a arch who was sympathetic in regards to Bell's style, such as Hanse do the work instead of Fazio. I agree with Michael Robin's coments from a few days ago regarding 8, the right fw needs to be a tougher target as GT intended to add the strategy that the hole once possesed. It's too wide. As far as the Kikuyu, yes it keeps holes like number 4 playing like the way a Redan is supposed to. I would've like to have seen the course play  without it and play really F&F, but despite this, Riviera is just an awesome course today. I really don't think there is a "weak" hole there. I don't care much for rankings, but I think Riviera belongs in a top 15-20 discussion in the country. The ranking it received last year was an absolute joke.

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

You are wrong about #4.  Because of the severe slope of the ground the hole still plays exactly as anyone would wish. On my last play I even saw a long time member putt the ball from 30 yds out.  No matter what grass was in play the leaders would have still shot directly at the hole like they did on Sunday.

What proof do you have that Hanse would have done a better job?  Where do you get this opinion, from his partner?  Don't you think drainage plays far too an important role at Riviera to trust it with unproven talent in that regard?  If there is one clear cut thing that Rustic and an early Riviera have in common it is a poor drainage plan that lead to an eventual destruction of the original design.

[John Kirk]

Lynn,

I read the article.  I feel proud to know him.  It came just at the right time, as I sense he was feeling pretty apprehensive after he resigned.  I sent him an e-mail saying I would follow his next move with interest, and he returned a message saying how much he loved his family and that he would persevere.

One of the best things about getting old is watching how some of your contemporaries become great men. When he was a kid, I used to play against him in rec leagues and junior college leagues, and the seeds of the DDM (or AASAA) style were already there.

[David Stamm]

David,

You are wrong about #4.  Because of the severe slope of the ground the hole still plays exactly as anyone would wish. On my last play I even saw a long time member putt the ball from 30 yds out.  No matter what grass was in play the leaders would have still shot directly at the hole like they did on Sunday.

What proof do you have that Hanse would have done a better job?  Where do you get this opinion, from his partner?  Don't you think drainage plays far too an important role at Riviera to trust it with unproven talent in that regard?  If there is one clear cut thing that Rustic and an early Riviera have in common it is a poor drainage plan that lead to an eventual destruction of the original design.

John, I had the same shot. And yes, I agree, it can be putted and I did so. If the tee shot had played like a Redan was designed, it would've never hung up on that apron in the first place. It would've caromed off there and onto the green if a draw had been played. I really don't care how the pro's play the hole today to be honest because they play it one week a year. And you don't know that they would play the hole the same way if Kikuyu was not in play.

I don't spout about architects abilities based on someone else's opinion as you imply. Hanse an unproven talent? I think you'd find quite a few people here that would refute that. The only thing Fazio has proven in regards to GA archs and their courses is that he doesn't care for them as much as others. The drainage design of Riviera had nothing to do with GT's lack of know how and it's erosion. Mother Nature had everything to do with it. Many of the GA courses (and others) across California have been severely damaged by floods caused by heavy rains throughout the years. And unless you've experienced an El Nino here, you wouldn't have any idea that no amount of engineering can stop that kind of flooding. I've seen damage to courses from all different eras and all different types of archs from heavy rains that happen from to time here in California.

[John Kavanaugh]

To comment on how much one architect cares when compared to another is ignorant and irresponsible.  I think the work at Merion has been found to turn out fine.  Let's limit ourselves to discussing the work as it has been done and not how we wish the flavor of the week got the job.  I wish my brother got the job, who gives a shit.

[Adam Clayman]

JB, Euc's are the worst maintenance headache of any tree species, but only second to the willow in worst trees to have on a golf course. They litter the ground constantly. Personally the trees, left, off the tee on 13 are like teets on a bull. The trees on 18 are not and protect those playing #3. IMO.

Knowing GCT's famous quote about those who can decide golf course archtiectural matters and trees, I'll side with George.

[John Kavanaugh]

The other thing that pisses me off about this thread and golf in every region of the country is the blantant pass given to Asian hate.  Just on this thread alone we hear...Did you take your shoes off...Asian ownership loves trees..etc, etc.  I am sure as the rising sun that if Riviera were owned by Clint Eastwood half this hate of the clubs policies would remain mute.  Just recently in Alabama the marshal approached us concerned about the group of Asian gentlemen in front of us who were playing a 7300 yd course in under 4 hours.  I asked him where he served in the big one and he brushed it off.  The Asian hate overtones need to stop with the general stereotypes we all have when confronted with tee sheet of single syllables.  As you have seen by my pictures from Oregon, nobody plays with more Chins than me.

[John Kavanaugh]

JB, Euc's are the worst maintenance headache of any tree species, but only second to the willow in worst trees to have on a golf course. They litter the ground constantly. Personally the trees, left, off the tee on 13 are like teets on a bull. The trees on 18 are not and protect those playing #3. IMO.

Knowing GCT's famous quote about those who can decide golf course archtiectural matters and trees, I'll side with George.

I agree about the mess but for me as an infrequent visitor the fragrance trumps the trouble.  I do believe that 18 would lose considerable charm if you were not forced to keep your drive left.  The trees are also thin and tall enough that from the right side a slice recovery is very possible.

[David Stamm]

To comment on how much one architect cares when compared to another is ignorant and irresponsible.    Let's limit ourselves to discussing the work as it has been done and not how we wish the flavor of the week got the job.  I wish my brother got the job, who gives a shit.

Ignorant and irrresponisble? How so? I do in fact look at the course as it is now, becasue that's the reality. It is a great, great course.   But I would hardly call Hanse a flavor of the week.  

[John Kavanaugh]

To comment on how much one architect cares when compared to another is ignorant and irresponsible.    Let's limit ourselves to discussing the work as it has been done and not how we wish the flavor of the week got the job.  I wish my brother got the job, who gives a shit.

Ignorant and irrresponisble? How so? I do in fact look at the course as it is now, becasue that's the reality. It is a great, great course.   But I would hardly call Hanse a flavor of the week.  

Why do you think Hanse cares more about Riviera than Fazio?  Have you ever talked to either about the course?  Do you think Fazio needed the job for his resume?  Do you think he needs the money?  What has Hanse ever done that would lead you to believe that he cares more?  What has Hanse ever done that is more important than the work Fazio did at Merion?

[John Kavanaugh]

Why Hanse and not Forrest Richardson.  Why doesn't anyone say...Gee, I wish Forrest had got that job instead of Fazio.  I bet Forrest really, really cares.  How ignorant and irresponsible is that?

[Ryan Farrow]

David,

You are wrong about #4.  Because of the severe slope of the ground the hole still plays exactly as anyone would wish. On my last play I even saw a long time member putt the ball from 30 yds out.  No matter what grass was in play the leaders would have still shot directly at the hole like they did on Sunday.

What proof do you have that Hanse would have done a better job?  Where do you get this opinion, from his partner?  Don't you think drainage plays far too an important role at Riviera to trust it with unproven talent in that regard?  If there is one clear cut thing that Rustic and an early Riviera have in common it is a poor drainage plan that lead to an eventual destruction of the original design.

I have to agree with you about #4, that slope is just brutal. As long as you have a low trajectory the ball should work its way on the green not matter what. Best par 3 in all of golf right?

And since I can never understand why you say the things you do, I think that we should just ignore the last comment there. I am  assuming it is a joke.

And was that flood at Rustic a perfect storm of events which led to that kind of destruction? The fire and then the flood?  What would you have wanted him to do? Turn the wash into a massive concrete channel?

[John Kavanaugh]

And was that flood at Rustic a perfect storm of events which led to that kind of destruction? The fire and then the flood?  What would you have wanted him to do? Turn the wash into a massive concrete channel?

It was a perfectly predictable series of events that is supported by historical evidence at both Riviera and Lakeside.  I have no problem with designing something destined to fail as long as the owner is properly informed and protected.  The design of Rustic in that canyon with little or no erosion control reminds me why men do not wear lace panties, they feel great but one long lunch and they are history. 

[Lou_Duran]

Based on my one afternoon at Riviera, I came to the conclusion that the kikuyu grass has drastically changed the way the course is played for most golfers.  #4 did not allow a run-up shot coming in from the right, nor #10 the bump and run pitch shot (both were killed by the grass), nor #18 (a hole that plays much longer than the yardage for those who don't carry the ball 250y+) coming in on the left side.  For the pros who play an aerial game anyways, the kikuyu is probably good in that it does make the course play longer.

Not to disrespect Riviera at all- it is a fantastic course- but I think LACC-North is the superior course in SoCal.  While it too has kikuyu, it seemed to affect my ball much less.

[Joe Hancock]

 While it too has kikuyu, it seemed to affect my ball much less.

Interesting, Lou.....so how can you blame th kikuyu at Riviera when it seemed to be a decent playing turf at LACC? Wouldn't it be something else to catch the blame then?

Joe

[tlavin]

I've played the Riv a handful of times and I think it's a spectacular golf course, for a number of different reasons.  First, other than the big drop shot on the first tee and the climb to the 18th green, the golf course is remarkably flat, but incredibly interesting.  The par 3's as a set are hard to top.  #4 and #6, in particular are simply spectacular.  The long par 4's are incredibly demanding and the tenth hole is well deserving of its reputation as the world's best drivable par 4.  I'll leave it to the architectural purists to debate whether the look of the bunkers is an offense to the work of George Thomas.  They look pretty good to me.  I'm no Geoff Shackelford, but I think the golf course's renovations are pretty solid.

Having said that, there are a bunch of eucalyptus and sycamore trees that have to go.  I'm guessing that the course tweakers group in the club could never overcome the tree huggers, but the sight of sycamores being propped up by steel bars with camo paint is sick, indeed.  In the final analysis, that's probably a trivial complaint, but the trees are in need of chopping.

Otherwise, Riviera is a very special place.  Like Lou Duran, I prefer LACC North, but for different reasons.  In terms of the challenge and the "specialness" of the design, Riviera is the equal of LACC North.

[Lou_Duran]

Joe,

You're a superintendent if I am not mistaken, so perhaps you can appreciate more than most how a course can be maintained even with less than ideal grasses to overcome the negatives.  I don't know for a fact that LACC fights the kikuyu or that the infestation is any less, but the ball definitely rolled much better there.  I played them in back-to-back days and I don't think that there had been much rain in prior days.  There are other reasons that I prefered LACC-North: more varied topography and firmer, faster conditions among them.

Terry,

Are the two par threes on the back not rather repetitive?   Other than the most unusual bunker in the middle of #6, what speaks for #6?

I do agree with your take on the bunkering.  If it was better before, it must have been really, really great.  It is indeed a very special place.  Playing up #18 is quite an experience (I can just imagine Hogan leaning forward trying to get up the hill). 

[Joe Hancock]

Lou,

Thanks. Yes, grasses perform differently under different maintenance regimes. I guess you were just being nice by not saying the maintenance of kikuyu at Riviera sucks compared to the kikuyu maintained at LACC.

 

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