[Mike Hendren]

I know the tele doens't tell all, but from the Hillbilly Double-Wide Riviera looks like an amazing golf course that any legitimate GCA groveler would love to play and rave about.  I know  -  Fazio, alternative greens for visitors, club management/ownership, turf, yada, yada, yada.

For those of you who've played there, just how good is it?
What are its strengths?
What are its weaknesses?

Perhaps it ain't as good as it once was, but it looks world class to me.

Comments?

Mike

[James Bennett]

World Class.  Absolutely.

James B

[Adam Clayman]

Michael, You seem to already have a grasp on some of the weaknesses. yada bing. I would only add that the new features do not flow with the property and are somewhat jarring to a critical or sensitive eye. However, multiple slaps, will not remove any true GCA enthusiast's grin, while playing there. The whole place reeks of golf in Hollywood history. It's a grand place.
 Riviera, the gc, has many strengths. It's difficulty lay in the design features which challenge one's management and execution. The Kikuyu is a strength. Providing a wonderful mat while creating unique challenges. It also helps a finite site play longer than it's actual yardage. A few trees could be pruned, and key banks could be shaved, but those are my issues.

[rjsimper]

Its much better than I thought.

Even having walked it several times in the tournament I thought it was a nice enough setting etc, but on my one play of it I was blown away by how good it actually is - the compact routing, the variety of shots, even how good some of the non-famous holes are (I started a thread about the 5th maybe a year ago)

As a young guy and one who isn't overly worked up about "travesties" of modernization etc, I'm more concerned with what the course is now rather than what it was 80 years ago...and what it is now is one of the five best courses I've ever played.

[Jim Nugent]

For several years, the winner at Riviera has not hit many fairways.  50% or less.  Same has been true of several other players who finished near the top. 

Does this show driving is important or not there?  Can you spray your drives anywhere, or do you still have to position them well? 

Is Riviera a good driving course? 

[Joel_Stewart]

It is world class.  Somehow it doesn't come across that great on TV?  Every hole is different, every hole is interesting.

[John Kirk]

Michael,

Adam and I disagree a bit.  I did not find the new features as jarring to the eye.  Other than that, we are generally in sync.

It's a unique site; a wide canyon with steep cliffs on both sides.  It's just so different than anything I've seen.  Because of the subtle tilt of the valley, shots play a half club more or less, and putts break in unexpected ways.  It's one of those very few places where I just looked around from the hill that overlooks the course and knew I would love it.  Love at first sight, without even striking a shot.  Holes 1, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 16 and 18 are to die for.

[wsmorrison]

What grasses were originally used when the course was designed and built? 

I may be wrong, but I assume Kikuyu was not an original grass for the course.  If so, in what way does the Kikuyu itself impact how the course is played and for those that know the grass well, please contrast that to how it would play with original grass strain.  This could be an interesting example of how different grass varieties meld with the architecture creating a variety of playabilities.  It may also help us understand more about the original design intent if in fact the playability is much different today than it was when built...disregarding balls and implements and focusing on the maintenance meld.

[Bill_McBride]

Adam, I don't know how you can say the kikuyu grass is a good thing.  It completely takes the ground game out of the golf course.  I haven't played Riviera    but have played many rounds at LaCumbre in Santa Barbara.

Every shot at LaCumbre must be pitched onto the putting surface, a shot that lands a yard short will grab, the kikuyu is similar to velcro.

Just to show you the lengths to which a club will go to eliminate kikuyu, the Valley Club of Montecito has a full time crew patrolling the fairways and manually removing it.  Only a club with VC's maintenance budget could do this!

Given that there is some cross play between LaCumbre and Valley Club, I'm surprised the latter doesn't enforce some kind of rule requiring cleansing of visitors' golf shoes - like the Department of Agriculture was doing at Atlanta Airport during the mad cow scare.

[rjsimper]

For several years, the winner at Riviera has not hit many fairways.  50% or less.  Same has been true of several other players who finished near the top. 

Does this show driving is important or not there?  Can you spray your drives anywhere, or do you still have to position them well? 

Is Riviera a good driving course? 

Jim,

This pattern is not an indictment of Riviera, isn't it the case that this pattern has proven true across the board at most if not all tour stops?

I believe Riviera is an excellent driving course and calls for a number of shots if you want to succeed.  You can definitely NOT spray it everywhere and get away with it - there are enormous eucalyptus trees lining most every fairway, and even if you stay within the corridors, holes like 10 and 15 demand that you not only approach from the fairway, but that you approach from the proper angle in it.


Wayne,

No, kikuyu is not the originally intended grass and any native of So Cal will tell you that the stuff is devilish.  I'm falling into the trap of talking about what once was rather than what's there now regarding Riviera, but the most immediate difference I can think of that Kikuyu would make is all but eliminating the run-up shot on the all-world 4th hole, a long par 3 that all but screams for a hot-slinging ground hook to a back left pin.

Adam is correct in that the kikuyu lengthens the course, but I don't agree that it's a good thing (except in the context of making it feasible to still have a tour event there)

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne, Bill, I don't know what the original strain was. The Kikuyu, does eliminate the ground game option on many of the larger kick plates, at most times, except for when it goes dormant.  Such as; Rt. green side on #2, Rt. on #4 and left on #18. Obviously the emergence of a strictly aerial assault game, combined with the Augusta syndrome, has render those features virtually obsolete.
 I'll still stand by the notion that it is a strength because, it requires more forethought, can be unpredictable, clearly defines what is a good-great shot and that's the way the membership and committees wants it. There is nothing more challenging than trying to stop one's ball on a firm green coming out of Kikuyu. Especially the delicate shots around sloping greens.
Bill, KK is a very aggressive strain and clubs that don't want the plant should be aggressive in eradicating. That does not mean it is a bad grass. When low mowed, it provides a lie that nearly everyone would want. Sitting up high.

John Kirk, Do you disagree that the Marzolf built features are against the flow of the subtly tilted valley?

Kirk, Could you expound on what you don't like about the double K?

[Tommy Williamsen]

The last time I played Riviera was 1983.  I still remember every shot I hit.  The holes between 2-7 and 10, 12-16 are absolutely wonderful. Outside of Merion the first tee is the most intimidating tee in golf.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

This year it seems like the tournament announcers at Riviera did some pretty damn fine research on the golf course and also on that Kikuyu grass. Maybe you missed it but one of them said Kikuyu was originally used out there for polo simply because it is so indestructable. I shouldn't say it was one of the announcers, I think it was McCord.

Matter of fact, some indigenous grasses are pretty interesting. For instance, when I was a little kid in Daytona Beach the indigenous grass on most lawns and such and most everywhere else was a strain called St. Augustine. Man that stuff was really tough---a big broad tough leaf I wouldn't want to play golf off of it but I used to love that stuff. I loved the smell of it and I also used to like to eat it---I loved the taste of it too. I guess that's what made me so weird---I ODed on St. Augustine grass.  

The other downside to St. Augustine was how much it stained your clothes if you were a kid playing on it. I'm sure mothers hated trying to deal with what it did to their kids clothes. Most of the time I looked like a little light green urchin.

[Bill_McBride]

Wayne, Bill, I don't know what the original strain was. The Kikuyu, does eliminate the ground game option on many of the larger kick plates, at most times, except for when it goes dormant.  Such as; Rt. green side on #2, Rt. on #4 and left on #18. Obviously the emergence of a strictly aerial assault game, combined with the Augusta syndrome, has render those features virtually obsolete.
 I'll still stand by the notion that it is a strength because, it requires more forethought, can be unpredictable, clearly defines what is a good-great shot and that's the way the membership and committees wants it. There is nothing more challenging than trying to stop one's ball on a firm green coming out of Kikuyu. Especially the delicate shots around sloping greens.
Bill, KK is a very aggressive strain and clubs that don't want the plant should be aggressive in eradicating. That does not mean it is a bad grass. When low mowed, it provides a lie that nearly everyone would want. Sitting up high.

John Kirk, Do you disagree that the Marzolf built features are against the flow of the subtly tilted valley?

Kirk, Could you expound on what you don't like about the double K?

Adam, you are still a young guy, but put yourself in the shoes of an old fart like me who might be a member of Riviera.  How is he going to play the course if the shots which might work best for him - run up shots - won't work because of the kikuyu grass?  Also wondering when kikuyu would be dormant in Los Angeles?

Tom Paul, St Augustine grass would fall somewhere in between kikuyu and ice plant in playabilility! 

[John Kavanaugh]

The run up shots work especially if you are an old man with little wrist action.  I have trouble seeing the difference between the play of zoysia and kikuyu.

[John Kirk]

Adam,

I just didn't think about it that deeply.  Let's name some of the big changes:

Modified corner bunker on #15
Added green surface on #8 and #13
Reopened the right fairway on #8

Some people cite the big fairway bunker on #7, but I've also heard there was sand there, so they had uncovered that one.  The new right fairway on #8 is a no-brainer, a much easier route that renders the left fairway moot.

I guess when you say the "Marzolf features are against the flow of the subtly tilted valley", I guess I just don't see it.  One expert on this subject, Geoff Shackelford, is really down on the changes, and I respect his views.

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, Trajectory is the key to playing a run-up shot on Kikuyu. If you are under the impression it is impossible, you would be mistaken. Kikuyu goes dormant, even in Los Angeles. I'm not sure if it's the temperature or the low light that causes it.

I guess I'm a big world theorist as it pertains to grasses. Embracing the varieties is a better mindset than the antithesis.

JK, The left bunker line on #7 and on the last Par 5 (17?) is were I recall being jarred. I'll need a repeat play to answer more definitively. I remember coming to the seventh and immediately recognizing just how different the look was from the preceding six hole's bunker presentations.
 
Knowing Ben Crenshaw's affection for Mr. Thomas' design, I think he did a great job of recapturing some of those kickplates at Colorado GC. His low profile bunkers on the flat section of that course are also an illustration of respecting Thomas' principle of NOT building agin the flow of the property.

[TEPaul]

John:

On hole #8 and the reestablishment of that right fairway, there was a post on here by Lynn Shackelford explaining the problem created there is the tee is just way too far over on the right to make that left fairway a reasonable option.

I was actually out there walking the course back in 2001 when they were rough shaping that tee and I just couldn't believe where they were putting those tees. From that spot it looked like the only way to get to the left fairway was to hit it over the trees. I even remember counting all those trees to see how many they'd have to take out to make that left fairway even remotely work from that new tee placement.

[JESII]

... I even remember counting all those trees to see how many they'd have to take out to make that left fairway even remotely work from that new tee placement.

Did you have to take your shoes off?

[Bill_McBride]

The run up shots work especially if you are an old man with little wrist action.  I have trouble seeing the difference between the play of zoysia and kikuyu.

Ha ha, I'm not that big a fan of zoyzia either when it's wet like it was when I played East Lake several years ago.

The key is that those grasses will never play F&F, which is, of course, the Holy Grail.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, Trajectory is the key to playing a run-up shot on Kikuyu. If you are under the impression it is impossible, you would be mistaken. Kikuyu goes dormant, even in Los Angeles. I'm not sure if it's the temperature or the low light that causes it.

I guess I'm a big world theorist as it pertains to grasses. Embracing the varieties is a better mindset than the antithesis.

Let me try it this way.  Given your choice, would you select kikuyu over other strains?

[John Kavanaugh]

The run up shots work especially if you are an old man with little wrist action.  I have trouble seeing the difference between the play of zoysia and kikuyu.

Ha ha, I'm not that big a fan of zoyzia either when it's wet like it was when I played East Lake several years ago.

The key is that those grasses will never play F&F, which is, of course, the Holy Grail.

Didn't you watch the tournament this weekend.  The balls were bounding up the 18th in a manner that our local pro asked if the course was really that firm.

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, I don't think what I prefer is germane to what exists. Why would I expect any course to fit my preferences, except one that I chose to join because it fits my ideal? I prefer the challenge of dealing with what's in front of me, no matter where I am or what grass is planted.
 If I had to decide, for a club, to have a many a lifelong fight eradicating the stuff, adding up those costs, I would settle with what Mother Nature provides. Poa and Kikuyu thrive in those coastal climes. Why fight it?

For the record, I prefer the John Kirk theory of what constitutes the most fun. More run out. Barring that, I still have to deal with a saturated or slower canvas on occasion.

[TEPaul]

"Did you have to take your shoes off?"

What do you mean by that?

[Chuck Brown]

I agree with just about everything that has been said above.  It is a truly great hitter's golf course.  Position means everything, to get good angles to approach.  Each hole is a pleasure to look at, from the tee or from the approach.  I think the course is genuinely loved by tour players that visit once a year as well as by the members and the Hollywood hangers-on who frequent it.  I routinely rank it in my personal top five or ten, along with the likes of The Old Course, Muirfield, Prestwick, Pinehurst #2, etc.  It is that good in my opinion.

Riviera also happens to be my favorite place in all of Southern California.  I'm not a big fan of that part of the country, and being at Riviera makes me feel transported.  I've not had the pleasure of playing at Bel Air, but I imagine it is much the same there.

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