[Phil Benedict]

Yale has at least 4 forced carry tee shots (1, 9, 10 and 17) that I can think of.  Not really long carries but visually pretty daunting.  Is there any other classic era course that has as many forced carry tee shots?

[Tim Gavrich]

Pine Valley?

[Phil Benedict]

Pine Valley?

I guess that would qualify.  I looked at Ran's profile and they are all over the place at Pine Valley.  I can't tell how long the carries are.  At Yale they are probably in the 150-yard range.

[Robert Emmons]

Fisher's Island ?

[wsmorrison]

Nearly every hole at Pine Valley has a forced carry of 150+ yards to the fairway from the middle of the back tees.

From the back tees, Merion East has a demanding collection of carries to the start of the fairway or to the green:

1. 135 yards
2. 150
3. 175
4. 160
5. 225
6. 200
7. 145
8. 145
9. 170
10. 165
11. 140
12. 220
13. 125
14. 190
15. 170
16. 175
17. 210
18. 240

[Scott_Burroughs]

3, 4, and 14 at Yale also have forced carries.

[Phil Benedict]

Wayne,

I used Yale as an example of forced carry tee shots because I am familiar with the course.  Since PV is 10 years older, it is obviously the better example.   I'm guessing here that PV employed forced carries tee shots because it was designed for the low handicap player, and forced carry tee shots are a fairly blunt instrument for discouraging hacks.  At Yale the frequency of forced carries may reflect the topography and other natural features such as Greist Pond.

[Curt Coulter]

Oakmont is an example of a great course with few forced carries off the tee or approaches into the greens, for that matter. There is only one hole with any forced carry off the tee(#7) and that is only from the new back tee where it poses any difficulty. As for the approaches, Oakmont only has 4 holes(#5,6,11 & 13) where you cannot bounce it into the green.

[Gerry B]

shoreacres has a few - 5,7,8,11,12, 13,15

[Patrick_Mucci]

NGLA and GCGC have more than a few.

However, I think you have to examine and analyze the forced carries at the older clubs from their ORIGINAL tees, and not today's back tees.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bethpage Black has a number of them.

[Kyle Harris]

Mountain Lake:

6, 8, 9, 12, 18

[wsmorrison]

"However, I think you have to examine and analyze the forced carries at the older clubs from their ORIGINAL tees, and not today's back tees."

Agreed to a point, Pat.  The original tees and equipment approximate the relative carry demands of today's courses that were able to take advantage of available elasticity.

[J_ Crisham]

The beauty of the forced carries at Shoreacres is that the distances are very manageable given the severity of the ravines. For the short hitter it is still quite fair. Unlike those at for instance Bethpage Black-but then short hitters probably shouldn't play here-hence the warning on the 1st tee.

[Phil McDade]

Nearly every hole at Pine Valley has a forced carry of 150+ yards to the fairway from the middle of the back tees.

From the back tees, Merion East has a demanding collection of carries to the start of the fairway or to the green:

1. 135 yards
2. 150
3. 175
4. 160
5. 225
6. 200
7. 145
8. 145
9. 170
10. 165
11. 140
12. 220
13. 125
14. 190
15. 170
16. 175
17. 210
18. 240

Wayne:

Any sense of whether any of these will be lengthened for '13, and if so, will they come close to the situation at the Black for the '02 Open? I do recall at the Am that the carry on 18 at Merion looked quite long. (I loved watching the carry from the back tees on 17.)

[Peter Pallotta]

It strikes me that a forced carry is an almost 'permanent feature' in a golf course's design, maybe one of the few. 

That is, other features can be and have been changed e.g. fairway bunkers are added or removed or reshaped; greens shrink or have their contours reshaped; fairways are widened or narrowed; maintenance practices bring firm and fast, or not etc.

But in most cases a forced carry would be pretty hard to eliminate, I'd imagine (although the relative demand of that carry obviously changes over time).

Any sense if any of the old architects used forced carries for this very reason, i.e. their relative architectural or functional permanence?

I'm guessing not, or that it wasn't an issue on way or another; but that's just a guess. 

And might this permanence be the very reason that most architect's today DON'T have/utilize
them?


Thanks
Peter

[Adam Clayman]

Pebble Beach has a plethora. While they may not all be forced, playing from the tips requires many tee shots to carry a minimum of 185 yards.

[Gerry B]

can't get much more classic than myopia  - some of the carries are short but have great shot values nonetheless :

1,2,3,4,6,9,12,13,16,18

scarboro in toronto has many as well:

4,5,7,12,16,17,18

[Tony_Muldoon]

Swinley Forrest has a bunch.

[Sean_A]

It strikes me that a forced carry is an almost 'permanent feature' in a golf course's design, maybe one of the few. 

That is, other features can be and have been changed e.g. fairway bunkers are added or removed or reshaped; greens shrink or have their contours reshaped; fairways are widened or narrowed; maintenance practices bring firm and fast, or not etc.

But in most cases a forced carry would be pretty hard to eliminate, I'd imagine (although the relative demand of that carry obviously changes over time).

Any sense if any of the old architects used forced carries for this very reason, i.e. their relative architectural or functional permanence?

I'm guessing not, or that it wasn't an issue on way or another; but that's just a guess. 

And might this permanence be the very reason that most architect's today DON'T have/utilize
them?


Thanks
Peter

Peter

There are probably just as many forced carries on classic courses as modern courses.  The difference is that many of the classics were built on a good terrain (which often naturally creates forced carries) for golf whereas many modern courses created a forced carry.  Its almost a definition of good terrain that forced carries will be involved.  One of the few ways I can think of to eliminate forced carries on ideal land is if animals are eating the vegetation between tee and green.  Not many classic clubs will bother to maintain areas short of the fairway if the land is difficult to cut.  This may be a reason that Ross put in top shot bunkers early in his career - to emulate links terrain with its disaster awaiting for many a topped tee shot. 

Ciao

[Donnie Beck]

I find it interesting that Fishers has only 2 fairway bunkers yet has forced carries on every hole. Upon closer examinations of other Raynor courses you will find that 90% of the forced carries at Fishers are at the same yardages that you find cross bunkering at his other courses. I have heard it said that Raynor died and never finished the bunkering at Fishers. I couldn't disagree more. If you study the angles of the landforms Raynor used for forced carries it blows you away. Simply Amazing. Take a look at the 3rd hole as an example. All world short par 4. Shortest carry over the hill is to the left, but the absolute worst angle into the green. Bite off more to the right side of the fairway perfect angle in to the green but longer forced carry. 6th hole same thing, 7th he used a pond on the right side instead of a bunker for the preferred angle. 8th dunes look at the angles.. Brilliant. It goes on and on.

[Phil Benedict]

The phenomenon is much more pervasive than my thread originally suggested, which only goes to show that I haven't played enough classic courses.  Since forced carries may be the most daunting obstacle to the high handicap player because they penalize mishits so severely, does this suggest that the clubs that had lots of forced carry tee shots were trying to discourage high handicappers from joining?  Or am I reading too much into this?

By the way, I tried to change the title of this thread and it seems to have been picked up on some posts but not on others.  This new software is interesting.

[wsmorrison]

Wayne:

Any sense of whether any of these will be lengthened for '13, and if so, will they come close to the situation at the Black for the '02 Open? I do recall at the Am that the carry on 18 at Merion looked quite long. (I loved watching the carry from the back tees on 17.)

I do not know what will be done in preparation for the US Open in 2013.  There sure are a lot of rumors though.  The fact is, outside of a couple holes, there is very little room to go back.  The carry from the back tee on 18 looks and is quite long.  Given that it is an uphill carry, it plays longer.  If it is into the wind?  WOW!

[Phil_the_Author]

Would it be possible to get a consensus definition of the DISTANCE requirement for a "forced Carry?"

I ask this because in this day of 350 yard drives, a carry of 135 yards really doesn't seem so forced to me for the average player.

[Phil Benedict]

Would it be possible to get a consensus definition of the DISTANCE requirement for a "forced Carry?"

I ask this because in this day of 350 yard drives, a carry of 135 yards really doesn't seem so forced to me for the average player.

The way I look at it is to ask the question "how bad a mishit does the forced carry allow before you are in the s..t?"  Even 135 yards can be problematical for someone who routinely misses badly, particularly if the forced carry is over a lost ball hazard.  On most forced carries, low handicappers don't even worry about the hazard because they rarely severely mishit a tee shot and the margin for era is pretty large.

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