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Michael Powers

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Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2008, 12:35:50 PM »

"And if everybody wants to bitch about endorsement deals that save them money, then you're just arguing that it ought to be harder for them to use their money for benevolent purposes."

Terry, the argument has NOTHING to do with how the USGA spends their money.  The argument has to do with why the USGA chooses to whore out there name in connection with a golf company to AQUIRE funds, expecially when everyone knows they don't need the money.  And yes, as soon as ESPN decides to run golf schools, they become a golf company and are in competition with other golf companies.
HP

tlavin

Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2008, 12:53:29 PM »

"And if everybody wants to bitch about endorsement deals that save them money, then you're just arguing that it ought to be harder for them to use their money for benevolent purposes."

Terry, the argument has NOTHING to do with how the USGA spends their money.  The argument has to do with why the USGA chooses to whore out there name in connection with a golf company to AQUIRE funds, expecially when everyone knows they don't need the money.  And yes, as soon as ESPN decides to run golf schools, they become a golf company and are in competition with other golf companies.

You can throw out these populist bromides ("whore out there (sic) name) all day long, the ultimate truth is that these endorsement deals help greatly in defraying operating expenses and the less they have in operating expenses, the more they have for philanthropic purposes.  I'm consistently amused by the vitriol that these USGA endorsement issues inspire on this site.  Golf is a game played largely by the capitalist elite in this country but people want to go crazy when the USGA makes deals with big corporations.    They make a deal with corporations to save money and you call them whores.  Nice.

Mark Smolens

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Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2008, 01:06:26 PM »
Terry,
The first time I left the USGA members program I wrote them a long letter describing my dissatisfaction with their work in preservation of the game's traditions due to modern equipment.  I got a long -- as I recall it was about 4 pages -- letter from Frank Thomas in response to my missive, and we had an interesting exchange of two or three letters.  His belief, then, was that the oversized drivers had maxed out (I think this was about the time of the 975D), and that "good" players wanted to be able to work the ball and couldn't do that with these oversized monstrosities.

For some reason (maybe that personalized letter from the King?), I sent them their $25 a few years later.  But their failure to regulate equipment has created this "bomb and gouge" game that threatens the very fiber of the game, so I'm no longer sending them their $25.  I'd rather give the WGA my money to pay for some caddy's tuition.

Rather than spending their income on corporate jet travel (you can see tons of threads on this topic on Geoff S's blog), they should be hiring a staff of lawyers who'll do nothing but defend the lawsuits when they tell the ball manufacturers to slow the ball down. 

JohnV

Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2008, 01:11:54 PM »
Using the USGA's Financial Statement, it is clear that the their Grant Program, while admirable and certainly a start, is certainly under-whelming when measured as a distributed percentage v. gross revenues. 2005 recorded this ratio at 5.6% and 2006 was actually worse, coming in at 4.7%. If measured as purely a charitable ratio, that might be somewhat acceptable, but as part of any mission-defined mandate it is rather pathetic. It must also be noted that only a percentage of all the USGA grants goes to efforts to expand the game or make it more available and accessible. Does anyone really feel that the above ratios are acceptable to achieve any meaningful goals in these areas?

Supporting other organizations is only a part of the USGA's purpose so measuring it against charitable organizations that primarily raise funds to support other organizations is not realistic.

But, if we are going to look at it, lets add in the 1.4M for turfgrass research and the 1.9M for supporting the regional associations with grants for interns.

Possible other things that could be considered are the 2.3M for the Museum, the 4.3M loss in the Green Section which the USGA absorbs to help clubs, the 4M loss in Equipment Testing and other items where the USGA tries to do things for the game without worrying about making it pay.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 01:19:47 PM by John Vander Borght »

Adam Clayman

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Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2008, 02:23:59 PM »
Their profit was 1% of revenue, so 5-6% for giving, isn't small potatoes.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2008, 02:38:24 PM »
I think the question should be asked is "How much money is there in the kitty?" Is it a reserve in case of a damaging settlement awarded to a manufacturer?

Bob

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2008, 03:09:37 PM »
I strongly agree with anyone who said that quitting the USGA is probably an ineffective way to voice opposition to any of the new initiatives.

When I have written to Walter Driver and to the membership director, they politely and promptly sent back personal replies.  I expect that they would not have bothered if I had not been a long-time USGA member.

And when I first read that quote from Pete Dye, I also wondered why he was picking on the USGA for "slow play" issues.  It is indeed a problem, but it is one that the USGA expends at least some efforts in correcting.  Perhaps not enough.  But how is it that the USGA has "contributed" to slow play issues?

Ditto turfgrass management.  Is it not true that one of the great unsung heros in making golf a better game has been the USGA's turfgrass research efforts?  Again, I don't want to heap more credit on the USGA than they deserve.  There is probably more that they might do.  But how is it that the USGA has made this issue any more problematic?

Lastly, equipment.  I am surprised that no one suggested that as long as the USGA has an official car and an official credit card, the USGA might as well make the Pro V1 its official golf ball.  This thread, with all of the thoughtful and heartfelt criticism of the USGA from a group of readers that by any stretch of the imagination ought to be the USGA's most devoted loyalists, should be a wake-up call the the USGA.

In failing to properly regulate equipment, the USGA has opened itself up to waves of criticism over many more run of the mill controversies.  (Russian Tea Room, jet usage, Executive Committee operations, etc.)  Criticism coming from, most significantly, the people who are or should be the organization's core constituency. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2008, 03:16:16 PM »
...
Lastly, equipment.  I am surprised that no one suggested that as long as the USGA has an official car and an official credit card, the USGA might as well make the Pro V1 its official golf ball.  ...

I thought I had!  ::)

I recon their next deal will be with Fortune Brands now that Wally has lost the ball fight to Callaway.  ;)  >:(
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2008, 03:19:23 PM »
I think the USGA has a lot more to worry about than golf schools. As Mark Smolens so eloquently put it - they need to address equipment issues, particularly the driver and balls, that are now causing the 'bomb and gauge' game. Brilliant.
Great golf courses the world over are being, sorry have been turned into pitch and putt courses. It is time to fix this problem and not by lengthening the courses. Who cares what the equipment companies want. They are going to sell clubs and balls no matter what the rules and regulations are. They do not make the rules, they should merely adhere to them.
Oh and while they're at it - maybe the USGA can get rid of the belly and long putters.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2008, 03:23:49 PM »
Their profit was 1% of revenue, so 5-6% for giving, isn't small potatoes.

The USGA is a not-for-profit, thus your logic of measuring it against profit percentage is extremely faulty. Take a long look at the organizational efficiencies achieved across all of their revenues and expenses and you'll see this is not an economically efficient organization. COGS is very, very high relative to obtained revenues. Post the United Way debacle of years past, not-for-profit management practices have come a long, long way to maximizing efficiencies and minimizing costs.

John:

   No doubt the USGA should (and does) receive credit for supporting other efforts (Turfgrass research and Regional associations), but my argument centers on the institution's ability to expand the game and make it accessible and available to the youth of our nation (read: Future). To me, and it is only one mans opinion, that is infinitely more important than many other of the support functions they allocate to (inc. Turfgrass research, Communications, and Equipment Testing, and a $2.6MM net subsidy of Museum/Archives). I hardly think the $4.3M loss for Equipment testing is necessary as I imagine they could handily charge substantive fees to the manufacturers for testing service (but alas they don't...why???)

   Please tell me why inner-city and rural youth (and yes those kids with different skin colors) don't have more sites dedicated to their use and education by the keepers of our sacred game?  Why can't the USGA buy and maintain several old run down clubs that remain for sale in large MSA markets and put them to work as such sites? Why can't they find in-sport or out benefactors to donate their cash (in return for a very positive goodwill affiliation) to sponsor such purchases? Why isn't this a USGA goal? Simply giving First Tee some cash doesn't cut it by me.
   I view putting more $$ into expanding and increasing access to the game as investing in the game's future and look at the building out of the infrastructure necessary to perpetuate the filling of the USGA coffers.  That does not, however, seem to be much of a priority to the older, semi-inbred members of the Executive Committee and I wonder when will this organization make that quantum leap out of the past century and into the present one? Sorry for my rant, as I know you are a very decent guy who represents what's right about people involved in the game.

  Bob:

  In defense of the Far Hills Folly, this is an organization that easily could have been bankrupt a few years back(Ping Suit) and if not for Eric Gleacher's brilliant financial guidance at the time, would still be struggling to build any meaningful cushion. Of course, the first thing they did was throw Eric overboard as soon as they righted the ship (another great EC decision). Yes, they have a good deal of cash, but shy of having Walter Driver intelligently turning over the reserves over to his pals on Water Street, they'll need it given the relative level of collective financial intelligence at the top. I guess the only residual benefit they have to show for all this is an ultimate access junkie's open door at Augusta.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

S. Huffstutler

Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2008, 04:34:45 PM »
Of course Pete Dye's bounce bunkers are only there to speed up play, right?

When one lives in a glass house.............



steve

TEPaul

Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2008, 06:05:18 PM »
I'm completely with  JES11 here.

I mean maybe I'm dense, maybe I'm inherently unethical or whatever but I sure do wish someone would explain to me why they think the USGA is being either unethical or exhibiting some kind of conflict of interest here with their new policy on corporate sponsors and such? I'm trying really hard to see what the problem is here and where it exists. Truly, I mean that, I'm not sure I get it.

And I'm old, and I'm from the old school when golf administration in the form of the national AMATEUR organization that runs a number of really important areas of golf, and other regional and local golf administrative organizations had no ties at all to anything to do with commercialism, sponsors or even  money or anything like that.

But I've been in these administrations for years now, and I know costs are rising in golf across the board and all we're really trying to do is offer the best for the golfer for as little as possible. We need to find money these days in different places than in the past and to do that I can't see how a big corporate sponsor is that much different than an individual "member" contributor as long as the money taken in by these "not for profit" administrative golf organizations flows down to where it should----eg ultimately the end-user, the American golfer!

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2008, 06:50:13 PM »
TE, et al,

The issue is not that the USGA develops partnerships and other corporate affiliations.  It is with them doing the same with a GOLF COMPANY.  The conflicts are nearly endless.

And since we are talking "Good of the Game", I can only assume that the USGA somehow has decided that  ESPN's traveling golf show is the best way for the golfing public to receive their golf instruction.  After all, they are golf's governing body here in the U.S.

Also, maybe some DGers more familiar with the R & A can let us know if they have entered the golf instruction business as well?
HP

TEPaul

Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2008, 07:23:07 PM »
"The issue is not that the USGA develops partnerships and other corporate affiliations.  It is with them doing the same with a GOLF COMPANY.  The conflicts are nearly endless."

MichaelP:

Yes, they most certainly are endless. It seems to me that the USGA, their lawyers and their ethics are well aware where that line is.

In other words, there is no way in hell they will ever take sponsorship money from a manufacturer of golf balls or equipment or anything like that, that the USGA is in the area of monitoring and/or regulating.

Let's say a company such as American Express or Lexus (two of their four current "primary" corporate sponsors) bought a golf equipment company. It's my sense that if that happened the USGA would immediately cut their sponsorship ties to that USGA corporate sponsor.

It is the more nuancy lines of contact or "interest" that I think we need to focus on and discuss on here in that vein.


Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2008, 07:35:49 PM »
...
Yes, they most certainly are endless. It seems to me that the USGA, their lawyers and their ethics are well aware where that line is.

...

You mean the USGA actually has some lawyers? ;)

I'm reminded of Abraham Lincoln's letter to General McClellan, early in the war, when the Army of the Potomac was requesting more men and munitions, but not engaging rebel forces.  "My Dear McClellan," Lincoln wrote, "if you are not using the army, I should wish to borrow it."

TEPaul

Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2008, 09:55:37 PM »
ChuckB:

I'm a huge fan of Lincoln, and because I have been for years I rarely hear a quotation from him I haven't heard before. I have heard that one, and so I would ask if there is any applicability in it to the subject at hand, even if there is something about that Lincoln quote that apparently reminds you of the subject at hand?   ;)

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2008, 11:54:04 AM »
I expressed some of my opinions within this thread to the USGA, their respone:

Dear Mr. Powers:

Thank you for your recent email to the USGA regarding our partnership
with ESPN. I am passing your comments to our Director, as we are
continuously reviewing member comments to determine how best to serve
our members.  Please keep in mind, however, that instructors at ESPN
Golf Schools are certified PGA of America Instructors. This was an
important factor in our discussions with ESPN. We proudly partner with
the PGA on many programs including Patriot Golf Day, promoting
PlayGolfAmerica and Rules Education.

Thank you for your support of the USGA. To update your personal
information such as your phone number, mailing address or email address
please visit https://members.usga.org/email otherwise if you need
further assistance, please contact the Members Program at 800-223-0041,
9:00 a.m. - 4:30 p.m., ET, Mon. - Fri. or membership@usga.org.

Sincerely,
Carol Flavelle
USGA Members Program
cflavelle@usga.org




HP

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2008, 11:56:33 AM »
TE ~

Just musing about the USGA's incessant studies, gathering data, requesting samples and prototypes of shorter-carry balls and input from manufacturers and then... Doing. Nothing.

When I had the opportunity to press Walter Driver on the overwhelming chorus of (a significant majority of?) the most knowledgable people in the game all complaining about ball technology, Mr. Driver said, "They don't have our data."

To that, I say, "The USGA is a quasi-public non-profit.  If it has meaningful data, share it.  If there is a strong case for not doing anything about technology (other than the threat of lawsuits), then by all means make that case.  If you can.  But DO something."

No matter how one feels about technology, when you have everyone from Pete Dye to Tom Doak, Ben Crenshaw to Jack Nicklaus, and Geoff Ogilvie to Tiger Woods, all saying that golf ball technology is a problem and that the USGA has failed in its regulatory function, then I'd say that the burden of proof has been effectively shifted to the USGA.  When the USGA's second-most-honored national figurehead (Arnold Palmer) talks about problems with equipment regulations, then you know there's a problem.  And it really is up to the USGA to do something, say something, prove something more than what they've done so far.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 12:42:08 PM by Chuck Brown »

Garland Bayley

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Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2008, 12:04:11 PM »
TE ~

...And it really is up to the USGA to do something, say something, prove something more than what they've done so far.

Amen to that!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JohnV

Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2008, 03:59:32 PM »
To that, I say, "The USGA is a quasi-public non-profit.  If it has meaningful data, share it. "

See: http://www.usga.org/equipment/notices/notices_and_announcements.html

You'll find studies on the following:

A Study of the Effect of Rough Height on Tour Player Performance Using U- and V-Grooved Irons
 
Statistical Analysis of PGA Tour Skill Rankings 1980-2006
 
Interim Report on Study of Spin Generation

Second Report on Study of Spin Generation

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The USGA has lost it's way
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2008, 04:06:58 PM »
To that, I say, "The USGA is a quasi-public non-profit.  If it has meaningful data, share it. "

See: http://www.usga.org/equipment/notices/notices_and_announcements.html

You'll find studies on the following:

A Study of the Effect of Rough Height on Tour Player Performance Using U- and V-Grooved Irons
 
Statistical Analysis of PGA Tour Skill Rankings 1980-2006
 
Interim Report on Study of Spin Generation

Second Report on Study of Spin Generation


Ummm, John,

All these leading people in golf are not criticizing the USGA about spin generation.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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