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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« on: May 24, 2003, 05:44:22 PM »
I had never played this course before today, although I walked it a couple of times when I first came to northern Michigan.

It was a wonderful, pleasant round of golf.  It's exactly the kind of course golf needs more of, but that no one is building.

Goes with the flow of the land.  Very simple bunkering which must cost pennies to maintain.  Great greens, and great greens surrounds for chipping.  Simple to build, simple to maintain.

I'm not trying to be too harsh on modern architects here.  Out of 15 past clients I think maybe only one or two of them would have wanted something this simple.  But seeing Belvedere makes me think everyone is trying too hard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2003, 06:00:12 PM »
Thanks Tom...

I have been told to go there and play by several northern superintendants in the know. It will have to be on my itinerary this summer. I'll be at Kingsley on Wednesday, but after meetings and golf there I won't have time to do anything else.

Lookiing forward to Belvedere,

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2003, 06:07:02 PM »
Tom,

I agree, although have no first hand knowledge of Belvedere GC. So...problem identified...and solution. Now, how do you propose we get there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2003, 07:13:45 PM »
Tom,
Please define "simple" bunkering.  Were there just a few bunkers with no wild edges or flashed sand?  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2003, 07:33:37 PM »
Sounds elementary my dear Watson... ;D 8) :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2003, 08:34:17 PM »
Actually, Willie Watson's original bunkers probably had a bit of bank to them, but what's left now could be described as "tilted saucers," with no grass lip above them.  It's not the most beautiful look ... I'm sure lots of people here could build more beautiful bunkers ... but they had the desired effect and they couldn't be simpler to maintain.

In fact the bunkering is the main reason I said above that no one today is building anything like this ... everyone wants to show how creative they are.  Most clients want their members or their customers to stand on the tee and say "Wow!"  So everyone for the last twenty years in northern Michigan has spent more money to impress us, and most of those impressive things have failed to pay for themselves.

Belvedere is basically an old farm.  No wow factor, except in the detailing around the greens which is exceptional.

It was just a timely reminder about what golf really is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2003, 08:42:18 PM »
Tom;

Are Watson's bunkers at Belvedere anything like the bunkers at Olympic Lake?  

They certainly aren't particularly artistic or fussy, yet they are unique and effective in their own way.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Yancey_Beamer

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2003, 08:55:37 PM »
Tom,
I played Belvedere some years ago on the same trip that included us playing The Downs. This is a very intelligent course with no frills. In a conversation this week I included it in my list of the best courses I've played in this country.It's a joy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2003, 05:45:21 AM »
Mike,

Yes, come to think of it, the bunkers are quite a bit like Olympic's.

I was assuming that their present form was just a matter of the maintenance staff edging and changing the look over time.  Perhaps not, after all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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T_MacWood

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2003, 07:20:44 AM »
Here are some old images of Belvedere:









I suspect the bunkers have changed over time - I wouldn't characterize Watson's bunkers as dull. Certainly not as bold as some, but they were defintiely interesting. From these old pictures it doesn't appear he planted too many traps, relying on the interest of the terrain.

The 3rd photo down looks a little like the plan in Thomas's book (or is it Hunter's book).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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John_McMillan

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2003, 09:37:04 AM »
Tom Macwood -

Thanks for the pics.  I can try to guess which holes the pics represent.  

The big white building in the top photo is the clubhouse.  To the right and below the clubhouse is the parking lot.  To the right of the parking lot is the pro shop.  The green just to the left of the road is the 9th green, with the 9th hole playing down the road to that green.  Parallel to the 9th hole, but playing in the opposite direction is the 1st hole.  On the right side of the road are the 10th tee and 18th green, though details of either are not really apparent in the photo.

The second photo down looks across the clubhouse from a different angle, with the 1st tee and 9th green, and some of the back nine holes on the other side of the road.  

The third photo down appears to me to be the very elevated first tee.  The first hole plays down the valley, the 9th hole is back along the top of the ridge.

The bottom photo looks like the 16th hole - which is diagrammed in Thomas "Golf Course Architecture in America." The current hole has many fewer bunkers - I think just the two in the central cluster, with those on the right and left having been filled in.  The middle cluster is not a difficult carry off  the tee, with the current critique of the hole being a "bomb it and flip it" hole.  I think the green countours make it more than that, though there is some discussion of adding more fairway bunkers to increase the interest of the tee shot for the better players.

The style of the lost bunkers on the 16'th hole, with their Thomas-like fingers, is nothing like the current bunkering style, which is much plainer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2003, 05:33:18 AM »
Belvedere is one of my favorite courses in Northern Michigan. I've played it about a dozen times.

It is open to the public and I can't recall if tee times begin at 11am or 1pm. I urge any GCA'ers to put it on their list when in the area.

Speaking of Watson's-Members that know him state Tom Watson finds it to be one of his favorites.

Hunt





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2003, 07:26:06 AM »
John:  I think the last picture is of the fourth green, looking down from the clubhouse and first tee, with the par-5 fifth going around the corner to the left.

Those old newspaper photogs tended not to wander too far from the shelter of the clubhouse (or the bar).

There are a lot of bunkers in that photo which aren't there anymore.  The hole is a 230-yard par-3 so I'm not sure why there were so many bunkers back away from the green.  John is right, though ... not many fingers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2003, 08:55:51 AM »
Tom,

Right on about Belvedere.  

It is hosting the Michigan Am this year, after a long absence.  I was very disappointed that a major brain cramp on #13 in the qualifier, cost me a quadruple bogey and a chance to play a tournament round there.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

John_McMillan

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2003, 09:33:25 AM »
Tom,

You may be right about the bottom photo being the 4th hole.  I was having a hard time fitting the 15th hole into the photo if it was of the 16th hole.  However, if it IS the 4th hole, the bunkers are very oddly placed - mostly around 150 to 180 yards from the tee on a 230 yard hole.  They'd give the handicap players fits, but not do much else.  The 5th hole doglegs to the left of the 4th hole, which does fit the photo.  However, there are fairway bunkers on the outside of the dogleg on the 5th hole.  That would mean these bunkers are new.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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DarrinS

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2003, 11:46:04 AM »
Tom Doak:

I, too, enjoyed Belvedere for the first time this past weekend.  I missed you by one day, however, as I played Sunday afternoon rather than Saturday.  (Did you play the entire round in that nasty, nasty weather?)

It is truly a great experience.  The course is preparing for the Michigan Amateur so the rough is up, and the course has bite.  The greens are superb (except the 4th, where I was sorry to see numerous bald patches), and of course, you've already mentioned the wonderful bunkering.  Luckily, I only found 1 bunker all day, :) (the monolithic fairway bunker on the short par 5 15th hole.)

We also played Gaylord CC and Little Traverse Bay GC in Harbor Springs this past weekend.  Gaylord CC is an "old-timer" worth a look, though not as nice as Belvedere, IMO.  Little Traverse Bay is your typical "elevated tees, 'wow' vista" country club.  Overall, another enjoyable golf weekend in the "Golf Mecca" :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Nick_Ficorelli

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2003, 05:05:16 AM »
After spending the better part of 20 summers in the general area, I would pick Black Forest,Belvedere,Treetops-Smith Signature,and High Pointe as the "can't miss" in Northern Michigan public golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2009, 03:25:59 PM »
A nice thread on a Willie Watson course.....     is he fully appreciated
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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2009, 03:33:41 PM »
Does he have enough work to be "appreciated" as an architect?  Other than Olympic Club, I don't think he has a "prominent" course out there.  Interlochen in Minny was completely redone by Ross.  From what I understand, he was a golf pro here in Charlevoix in the summers and in California in the winters and occasionally did some courses on the side.

I will say, there does seem to be a lack of information out there on him.  Which I find unfortunate because I would love to figure out more about him.  The word at Belvedere is that the only known photo of him hangs on the wall in their pro shop.  That is what Marty the pro says and I believe him.

I've recently read through two histories of the Belvedere Club that included excerpts about the golf course, its development and management, etc.  Very little is said about WW other than he was the pro at the Chicago Club across round lake from Belvedere and had designed that 18 holes as well (which is now a 9 hole muni that retains nothing of the original design).

I'm going to dig through some old newspaper articles from around the time Belvedere Golf Club was built here at the library in the coming weeks.  I'll post here if I find out more.
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2009, 08:09:24 PM »
Interesting to go back and read my first post.  I think I followed my own advice with what we built at Common Ground.
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Jason McNamara

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2009, 02:32:07 AM »
"Simple to build, simple to maintain....  [ S]eeing Belvedere makes me think everyone is trying too hard."

It's interesting that's Tom's take echoes what we've seen in web design the last few years.  That awful mindset that leads to Hey, all the other sites have Flash intros and lots of Javascript geegaws and audio effects and pop-up course guides, so clearly we need that on our site as well.

Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.
(As much as I like minimalist golf design, I think I like minimalist web design even more.)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 11:48:36 PM by Jason McNamara »
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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2009, 11:39:53 PM »
Mark
He is not fully appreciated. Watson designed many more courses than what is generally known. I've identified 45 designs in California, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Colorado, Arizona and New York, including some high profile courses credited to others, like Thousand Island (Raynor), Toledo (Park) and White Bear Yacht (Ross). There is still quite bit of Watson at Interlachen, and he designed Minikahda. He was heavily involved in two of the courses at Olympia Fields. Olympic-Ocean may have been his greatest accomplishment, but unfortunately it fell into the sea.

He is unique in that he was not home-grown professional in Scotland, nor even a good amateur. I'm still trying to figure out how he became a pro, I think his father was involved in clubmaking, and they came over together. To my knowledge he never competed in tournament. His design career stretched from 1898 to 1928, and that covers some pretty dramatic changes.

That is the first I've read of him being associated with the Chicago GC.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2009, 11:53:51 PM »
Tom,

I don't think the people at Toledo CC and White Bear YC will agree with your assessment that Willie Watson designed their courses any more than MCC will agree with you that Barker designed theirs.  That is just based on my limited contacts at each club.

Just what evidence do you have that Watson designed those, rather than those credited with the designs?  Some more train schedules?
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2009, 12:11:46 AM »
Tom,

45? Cornish and Whitten give 19 including several 9 holers. Was their work so incomplete?

Tom D,

Your description of the simplicity seems like a description of what many lesser architects are building today and every day. Can you give us some idea, what might make this one special, and deserving praise?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2009, 12:23:22 AM »
 8) ok.. Road trip..  who wants to join ms sheila and I at Belvedere and even Dunmaglas at end of July?  should be good berry picking by then

JC Jones, we have cabin at Blue Lake about 45 minutes south.. expect an email after 25 july..
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 12:27:32 AM by Steve Lang »
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