What Hole is This? (Lakeside #13 in LA by Behr)

[James Bennett]

300 yards along the line of play

280 yards on a direct route, with large trees in the way and slightly uphill.

Fairway at 200 yards about 20 yards wide, and then angling away from you.

Green 94 feet deep and perhaps 24 feet wide, angled away from the line of play.



Where is it?  What course?

Who would design such a hole?  

What do you think of the hole?  Have you played a similar hole anywhere?

James B

[Jeff Doerr]

James,

That is some green! It looks like a version of Spyglass #4. I wonder if it is RTJ? I hope others will chime in.

[James Bennett]

Jeff

good choice for a similar hole.  You are in the right state of the USA anyway.  This one is uphill though.

Just above the course is a facility that has been studied universally.

The architect was a bear of a man to the greatest extent - perhaps with German heritage.

Some would consider this to be an unlucky hole.

Here is a ground level photo of the approach.


and of the green


James B

[ed_getka]

James,
   Is it at Lakeside? I haven't been there, but I understand there are some interesting holes there. I vaguely remember some of your SoCal itinerary so that is helping me in case you think I am clairvoyant.

[Tom Huckaby]

It is Lakeside.  I wasn't gonna say anything, but Ed got it.

UNIVERSAL STUDIOS is up above it... architect is Max Behr (bear in German).

Cool clues, James.  And it brings back memories for me.  I haven't played the course in over 30 years, but I do remember this hole.  Very odd green, always a very tough pitch - one of those holes that although short I sure as heck never felt bad about getting a four on.

David Ober and others have played it far more recently than I have... and hopefully he and some others will play it again this summer in the State Am!

It was a very cool course back when I used to play it.  Looks like it still is.

TH

[Andrew Summerell]

You beat me to it, Ed. I was going to make some witty remark like, does the name suggest it is near a lake?

Yes, it is in fact Lakeside. What's the chance of two Aussies on a little forum like this having played it.

[ed_getka]

Clumsy me, I could have stretched it out a bit. I do tend to be rather clueless.

[Peter Nomm]

Wow - what a fantastic little green.

[James Bennett]

Now to similar holes elsewhere.

Jeff Doerr mentioned Spyglass Hill.

Just imagine if the inside of the dogleg was not tree'd but filled with short grass, and perhaps a startegic centre fairway bunker.  Mirror image the hole and you have ....?  Another SouthCal classic.

I also see a very, very slight semblance with the green angle to The Old Course #7, and probable more akin to the Reverse Old Course #7.  Slightly longer than 300 yards though.

Any other thoughts?  And the other SouthCal hole?

James B

[Mike Hendren]

For some reason I thought of the 12th at Mid Pines though it is a good bit longer.

Mike

[John Moore II]

Quite a nice hole, please no one jump down my throat for this one...but from the air it looks a bit similar to the 17th at Oakmont. OK, no fairway bunkers, but the shape is roughly the same.

[John Moore II]

Mike--yes, 12 at Mid Pines is longer, 360 range if I recall.

[Tom Huckaby]

Now to similar holes elsewhere.

Jeff Doerr mentioned Spyglass Hill.

Just imagine if the inside of the dogleg was not tree'd but filled with short grass, and perhaps a startegic centre fairway bunker.  Mirror image the hole and you have ....?  Another SouthCal classic.

I also see a very, very slight semblance with the green angle to The Old Course #7, and probable more akin to the Reverse Old Course #7.  Slightly longer than 300 yards though.

Any other thoughts?  And the other SouthCal hole?

James B

Riviera #10?

[James Bennett]

Now to similar holes elsewhere.

Jeff Doerr mentioned Spyglass Hill.

Just imagine if the inside of the dogleg was not tree'd but filled with short grass, and perhaps a startegic centre fairway bunker.  Mirror image the hole and you have ....?  Another SouthCal classic.

James B

Riviera #10?

Ding, ding, ding.

Any other holes where the green is narrow (we are talking less than 30 feet, perhaps less than 25 feet) and angled away from the direct line of play and more to a wider line of play?  (yes, The Old Course #7 green is wider than 30 feet.  That is why there is some similarity only to these holes).

What are the characteristics of #12 at Mid-Pines?  Who designed it?  I am not familiar with that part of the USA.  Perhaps I shall contact Andrew Sumerell, as he probably has been there.  

James B

[John Moore II]

My My James, I think we may all be disapointed in you...Mid Pines was designed by the great Donald Ross, his most orignal design left in the Pinehurst area. Shame Shame you don't know about it.
More seriously though, the 12th hole at Mid Pines is a downhill right to left dogleg par 4. According to Ran's review, its 380 from the back tees. Only Sean Fister or Jason Zuback could drive that one.

[Michael Robin]

Yes James, another hole we played together the 10th at Riviera, except that 13 Lakeside currently has only one real option from the tee, which is to hit it the proper distance to the bend in the fairway. Now, if they were to cut the trees back on the left and maybe recaptured some short grass all the way up the right side, it might be a little more fun to play. Right now it's just 2 short penal shots that reward you with a good birdie chance if you execute them properly. Actually, I think some of the suggestions you made to our host are being considered, like cutting back the long grass around the greens and rediscovering all of the wonderful short game opportunities that currently lie dormant under all that rough.

In answer to your other question, 16 at Pacific Dunes seems to fit the description in terms of how it actually plays. I think the green may be wider than your parameters, but it sure doesn't play that way.

[James Bennett]

Michael

your description of #13 is accurate.  As it currently stands, it is not (IMO) a poster-child of a hole.  I recall we were all looking for balls, perhaps 5 yards left of fairway, perhaps 10 yards right of fairway.  Unlike #10 at Riviera where you never look for a ball.

The key element of the hole is the narrowness and angle of green.  At Riviera, you choose where to approach that green.  At Lakeside, you are told where to approach that green, and suffer an additional penalty if you fail that advice.

I am wondering how Mid-Pines green is orientated, and its relative width/depth.  Johnny, I have only had the pleasure of playing one of Mr Ross's courses (Plainfield) and his greens are a feature that I remember fondly.  Did he use such a narrow/shallow green at Mid-Pines?

James B

[John Moore II]

James--Look at Ran's review of the course, hole 12 is one of the holes he described in detail. However, the green angles from left to right and is quite deep and narrow. I think Ran has the dimensions on the review.

[Jeff_Brauer]

If I am not mistaken, Graves Pascuzzo redid the course substantially, so I am not sure if that green is Behr.  It is nice, though, although I think the bunkers might be a tad overscaled to what Behr might have done.

BTW, Damian tells me that at one time, the whole course had some dunes similar to CP between most fairways. At least, I think he told me that, but either he or me may not have been sober when he told me!

[Ryan Farrow]

I don't know if this is the same hole anymore but, there is a picture of the old 13th green in Shackelford's Golden Age of Golf Design.

And some food for though:

"Alister Mackenzie considered Behr's original design at Lakeside one of the best in the world."-Geoff Shackelford

[James Bennett]

Ryan

Dr MacKenzie wrote highly of Lakeside in his 'Spirit of St Andrews'.  I will look up the Golden Age book tonight to see that picture.

Johnny M

I checked Ran's review at about the time you posted.  I plan to check Google Earth (and/or Scott Burroughs AOTD) tonight to see the alignement and dimensions.  Thanks.  Interesting that Ran comments on this being a unique green for Mr Ross.

James B

[David Ober]

I played Lakeside last year for the first time by being fortunate enough to play in the Kelly Cup. What a fantastic golf course, IMHO.

And number 13 is one of my favorites. Very, very tight off the tee, and your distance control needs to be pinpoint, or you have no clear shot at the green (too short and you don't clear the trees to the left, and too long and you're in the rough and hemmed in by trees.

The green is diabolically small and very difficult to hit without the right angle of approach.

Fun, fun, fun. :-)

[John Moore II]

James--the green is unique among the Ross courses I have played at least. Needles, SPCC, Wilmington Golf Club, Sanford, none of them have anything like the green on 12, and I don't remember it having any runoff area either. But its an excellent green none the less

[Sean_A]

For some reason I thought of the 12th at Mid Pines though it is a good bit longer.

Mike

Mike

I think the two holes are quite different.

1. You can see the 12th green from the tee at Mid Pines.
2. The Mid Pines green is sloped off the right bunker shoulder.  Though I seem to recall that the land generally moves right to left through the entire hole.  
3. The best line in at #12 MP is from the left, near the trees - though there is loads of room out to the right in suckers paradise.
4. #12 at MP isn't really reachable with or without trees in the way.

Other than all these things the two are quite similar!

Johhny M - I must that in my experience that the 12th green is unique for Ross.  It makes me wonder if he actually built what we see today.

Ciao

[Mike Hendren]

Sean,

You are correct.  Mid-Pines 12th green is angled in the opposite direction (front left to back right).  It is indeed an unusually narrow green for Ross.  Interesting that it and the subject hole are nice juxtapositions that fit nicely with the respective hole yardages.  The subject tempts the big hitter to drive the green with a dicey pitch if he's (or she's for Shivas) short or left while the Mid-Pines hole challenges the golfer to cut the corner on an otherwise extremely wide fairway to yield the best angle in.  The safe or unobservant driver of the ball will be left with a tough angle - even for a short iron approach.  

Like the 4th at Spyglass these holes place a premium on accuracy, first with the tee ball, then with a short pitch.  Classic and easy architecture that works anywhere but it too rarely employed.  

Mike

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