[A.G._Crockett]

Pat,
Most golfers are, and always have been, more or less oblivious to the GCA of a course, as we've all learned to our great dismay while trying to talk about this stuff to friends.  

In my judgment, a laser could (and in my opinion, would) cause a player who IS aware of GCA to become MORE aware of the features of the course at least as easily as they could become LESS aware.  Why?

WaltC. has it right; if a player uses the laser to shoot the flag (as opposed to simply pacing a distance to the center of the green) and determines that they are between clubs, and then reassesses the shot accordingly, they are MORE aware of the course and its architecture.  Distances to carry bunkers or water, correct zones in which to lay up, multiple levels of a green, etc., can all become MORE clear and significant to the player when they are using precise distances.    

I would assume that this is the reason that Tour pros want precise yardages.  On GCA.com, we would talk about that as "interfacing with the architecture".  Hard to interface to an optimal level when you don't know how far away the features are.

[Brent Hutto]

Do laser range finders pinpoint the yardage...but obscure the architecture and the strategy it creates ?

I was playing with four golfers, each of whom had their own laser range finder.

On every hole they determined the exact yardage to the flag.

But, on hole after hole they misplayed their approach shot.

The key word is "misplayed". Hackers hit bad shots all the time. Give 'em a rangefinder and they'll say "It's 184" and hit a bad shot. Give 'em a sprinkler head and they'll pace around for a bit, say "It's 184" and hit a bad shot. Give 'em nothing and they'll say "It's a little over 180" and hit a bad shot.

It ain't because of the rangefinder. It's because hacks hit shitty approach shot. Hacks also have no idea what club or shot they have that goes 184 yards.

Even hacks also hit good shots from time to time. But since they don't know how far they hit each club on any given day the good shots don't always end up on the green, rangefinder or not.

Nota bene: There is, however, at least a tiny chance that if a hacker uses a rangefinder consistently and then actually pays attention to how far his occasional good shots actually go he may over time develop some insight into how far he hits each club under various conditions. But that's maybe one rangefinder user in a hundred. If that. For most it's just a crutch the same as a new driver or a different golf ball or a new swing thought.

ObGCA: I'm with Mr. Crockett. The overwhelming majority of golfers only perceive a GCA feature at the exact moment it bites them on the ass. They don't have tunnell vision [sic], they're simply so caught up in their own self-talk and socially reinforced b.s. that the architecture of the course doesn't come to bear on how they approach the game.

[Phil Benedict]

Patrick,

I've only played with two golfers who used range-finders.  One of them is my older brother who is a multiple-year club champion at his home course.  He's always had a bit of a fetish about yardages, so it came as no surprise that he bought a range finder.  I can't see any difference in the way he plays approach shots.

The other is a member of my club who also happens to be the current Connecticut Senior Amateur champion.  He is the best iron player I have ever played with, and it's extremely interesting to see him play different kinds of shots into greens.  I don't think the range-finder has given him tunnel vision at all.  In a way, it's amusing that he uses a range finder at home since he could probably break 75 blindfolded given that he's been a member since LBJ was President.

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,

While I don't use a rangefinder, I can tell you that yardage is usually only the first peice of information I like to get.  After that I'll factor in more or less yardage for weather conditions, uphill or downhill, how well I'm hitting the ball that day.

And then after that I'll contine to make adjustments based on where the pin is, (rear, middle, front), which side of the green I want to make my mistake on, and where the hazards may be.

So someone who focuses in on yardage only, regardless of how they get that information, is not going to do as well as someone who tries to take in all the factors for the shot required.

And to say this thread isn't about execution is very humorous because the last half of your original post is about how they executed poorly and left themsevles with difficult recoveries all day long.  I can make all the best decisions and make sure I factor in everything, but if I hit a shot slightly fat and it comes up 10 yards short, then its all about execution at that point.

[Dub_ONeill]

I don't think range finders reduce the knowledge anyone has a bout how to play the game.  They do not create tunnel vision where it previously did not exist.  A range finder does not diminish a level of course management skill and gca appreciation that previously existed.  However, I do think a case can be made that it retards the learning curve for players who do not come to the game with such expertise.  From watching less experienced players use these devices I think they do become unduly focused on the precise yardage to the pin and less concerned about where on the green it is located and what the contours are that surround it.  They do not pay nearly as much attention to front and back yardages or carry distance  when they have that precise number notwithstanding all of the limitations on their games.  If you assume that it is a journey to reach the level of sophistication many on this forum possess, I do think that using range finders  slows that process.  That seems like a reasonable definition of tunnel vision.

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't think range finders reduce the knowledge anyone has a bout how to play the game.  They do not create tunnel vision where it previously did not exist.  A range finder does not diminish a level of course management skill and gca appreciation that previously existed.  However, I do think a case can be made that it retards the learning curve for players who do not come to the game with such expertise.  From watching less experienced players use these devices I think they do become unduly focused on the precise yardage to the pin and less concerned about where on the green it is located and what the contours are that surround it.  They do not pay nearly as much attention to front and back yardages or carry distance  when they have that precise number notwithstanding all of the limitations on their games.  If you assume that it is a journey to reach the level of sophistication many on this forum possess, I do think that using range finders  slows that process.  That seems like a reasonable definition of tunnel vision.

Dub,
I'd disagree with you because my experience with a rangefinder has been how often I get a yardage that puts me squarely between clubs.  I think a golfer in that situation is much more likely to look at where or where not to miss, which means you are LESS into a tunnel vision mode.

For example, let's say I'm sitting right beside the 100 yd. marker in the fairway, which is a perfect gap wedge for me, but my laser shows something between 105-110 to the pin, which is an in-between yardage for me.

If I get that number to the pin, then I might be more likely to look at GCA features to determine whether to accept too long or too short as my favored possible misplay.   That's less tunnel vision, not more.  Tunnel vision is a lack of, or at least a limited awareness of what is going on around you as you hyper-focus on one thing.

In general, I guess, I can't really see how knowing MORE can make me less aware.

[Patrick_Mucci]

An interesting tidbit.

Years ago, a club conducted an experiment.

They removed the flagsticks from the hole and had the members play the golf course that way for a period of time.

The club had tee markers indicating yardage and sprinkler heads which provided yardage to the center of the green.

That particular experiment, which was relatively small in terms of numbers of participants produced the following result.

On the whole, scores were lower.

Why ?

One conclusion was that since the golfers didn't know exactly where the hole was cut, they maximized their margins of error by playing to the center of the green.

This strategy avoided many greenside hazards and tended to leave them manageable approach putts.

Laser range finders, which produce exact yardages to the flagstick, would seem to promote the exact opposite strategy.

Shouldn't that result in higher scores ?

[Phil Benedict]

Patrick,

I've heard about the experiment you referenced.  Wonder whether the sample size was large enough to draw any conclusions (see New Hampshire primary).

I think knowing exact distances helps elite players.  First of all they know their yardages better.  Second, they are better at course management and will be play to a safe part of the rather than challenging a dangerous hole location (basically play the shot as if there were no flag).  Third, when there is a hole location they can go after it helps them to know the exact yardage, which relates back to the first point.

The rest of us would probably be better off hitting to the center of every green.

[Greg Krueger]

I am not a fan of range finders, although I don't really have an
issue with players who use them. On a trip to Scotland this
past summer my main competition came from my buddy who is
a club pro and a very fine player. He broke out his range finder
on the 1st hole of the trip at Leven, I remember razzing him about it and we got into a friendly little arguement. I told
him that it was a unfair advantage, he of course totally disagreed and said he was going to use it the whole trip, I said
that's fine I'll still kick your butt! Which of course I did by 17
shots over 6 rounds. I don't think it gave him tunnel vision but
it did seem to take him longer to hit his shots, which I surely
pointed out to him!

[Mark Smolens]

I had the exact opposite experience of yours (Greg K) on a trip to Ireland a summer ago.  Two of your seven players had range finders, and at the end of the trip we gave one of them to our host/guide, Jimmy O'Leary, because he too had fallen in love with being able to discern -- instantly -- how far things were.  Not just pins, which can be missed in the wind, but bunkers, knolls, knobs, fronts of greens, carries over hazards (or whatever), etc.

I have increasingly lousy vision, and I don't think it's going to get better.  Is my Bushnell a crutch?  Perhaps, but in my experience (and, in point of fact, in the experience of the local District's Better Ball events which allowed us to use range finders this past year) the ability to ascertain distance in seconds speeds the pace of play.

[Peter Nomm]

Here is what I have experienced in the past couple of years - we have Laser Link crystals in our flagsticks and nearly every member has bought one.  For most of the players, the only thing it has done is lessen the time it takes to figure their yardages (it is very quick).  And the average golfer probably isn't going to understand the design influences on their shots with or without the rangefinder, so if it helps them move along a little better (which it seems to have done) than I as their pro am all for it.

But I will admit this for myself - when I actually do go out with a range finder, it is VERY easy to simply get my yardage, grab a club, and hit the shot.  At least when I take a moment to walk off my yardage I am considering the other obstacles as I do this.  So yes, there is no doubt it is easy to overlook other aspects when relying on the gun.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

That's exactly what I was alluding to, the simplicity of getting the yardage, and quickly pulling a club, without giving thought to much else.

[Bryan Izatt]

Peter,

Is this true when you are playing your home course, which I assume you know intimately, including all the architectural features.  It's easy to play a very familiar course by rote after hundreds or thousands of plays.  Do you find the same if you are playing a less familiar course.

Patrick,

I've had a Bushnell for a few years now.  On my home course I used it sporadically at the begining to verify yardages on other markers.  Since I know where all the sprinkler heads are and I don't like taking the range finder out and putting it away, I generally use the sprinkler heads.  I used it after that to verify carry distances for creeks and ponds and traps.  Once I had confidence on those distances and what I could do on each, depending on conditions, I stopped using it there.  I use it at new-to-me courses, more for assessing hazards than actual distance to the flag.  Consequently, I'm not tunneling, because I'm using it in assessing features.

For those that use it for distance to the flag, I think it is of minimal use for others than elite golfers.  I'm reminded of a time some years ago when I played a corporate scramble with a couple of friends who were 6 or 7 handicaps at the time.  The corporation had hired Roger Maltby to speak at the dinner and to stand on the 7th tee - a par 3 - to meet and greet and to hit a ball for each team on that hole.  Smart guys we were, we asked him about the yardage and wind, etc.  He told us and then says, but why the f... do you want to know all that stuff - you have no clue how far or what direction you're going to hit it.  Properly put in our places, my two friends put their balls in a pond and Roger was well inside me on the green.  The lesson - even single digit 'cappers have little clue within 15 or 20 yards about where they're going to hit any particular iron shot to a green.  So, the accuracy for us is a bit of a waste.  For an elite player or pro with more consistent contrl of their shots, I think it would be very valuable.  I'd bet elite players, especially in competition are less likely to tunnel.  I've never found that the range finder lulled me to sleep on the features on courses.  Boredom with a familiar course is a way more likely way to induce tunneling imho.

[John Moore II]

I agree with most of the things Bryan said, Most of the time when I use a range finder, I do not look at the flag, my course has elevated greens for good bunkering, so many times, I do not feel confident with pin yardages. So I get distance to fly a bunker, or stay short of one, things like that. As I have said before, to people that know how to use them, they are tools. To those that don't, they are expensive toys.

[Mark Smolens]

Thank you Bryan and Johnny for articulating what I have been thinking as I read this post.  The real question now is whether or not the Bushnell will come out of the pocket next week at Royal Dunes and Whisper Rock where we'll have caddies.  In my experience, a good caddy will enjoy the challenge of competing with the range finder (at Portmarnock the caddy in our group kept running over to guess at my yardage before I could get it out of my pocket).

[Brent Hutto]

I have a GPS and not a rangefinder but it works about the same. If my goal is to shoot the best stroke-play score possible, especially on a course with which I'm not super familiar, then of course I want a well annotated yardage book and some sort of distance-measuring device. Seems like a no-brainer to me. The best players in the world don't play to yardages for the hell of it. They do it because having the most information the Rules allow minimizes their mistakes.

OTOH, if what I want is to fully appreciate a great golf course or just to have a relaxing friendly match with some friends the less encumbered the better. Heck, I don't even always take all 14 clubs in casual rounds and I've totally quit using the GPS unless I'm in full card-and-pencil mode. And I'm very, very rarely in card-and-pencil mode notwithstanding the pernicious influence of the USGA Handicap System.

[A.G._Crockett]

I agree with most of the things Bryan said, Most of the time when I use a range finder, I do not look at the flag, my course has elevated greens for good bunkering, so many times, I do not feel confident with pin yardages. So I get distance to fly a bunker, or stay short of one, things like that. As I have said before, to people that know how to use them, they are tools. To those that don't, they are expensive toys.

Well put.  

On the 18th hole of my home course, it is essential to be below the pin.  I want the distance to carry the bunker, NOT the distance to the pin if the pin is back left behind the bunker.  If the pin is front right, I want the pin distance, minus one club.

Important note: I am perfectly capable of STILL screwing up the shot.  But if I DO, I end up in the bunker or way short of the pin, either of which is way, way preferable to being above the hole.

All of that is done better AND more quickly with the laser than without it, and I really do feel like I am paying more attention, instead of less, to the relevant GCA.

[tlavin]

but obscure the architecture and the strategy it creates ?

Have laser range finders blinded golfers to the architecture and to the surrounds ?

Wow, what a simple, but evocative question.  I think the answer is a resounding yes.  I use the range finder every chance I get, but I think that it does tend to focus your eyes on the flagstick as opposed to the other nuances that are there if your eyes are truly open.  I have a friend who has a real heartfelt objection to these devices.  He believes that you lose a bit of your hacker soul when you rely on it.  He might be right.  And I think Mr. Mucci is correct as well.

Will I stop using them?  No, because I try to champion hypocrisy in simple ways.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why are some posters viewing the issue and responding in the sole context of their home course, which I assume they were familiar with before laser range finders came along.

 

[David Lott]

I don't use a range finder, in part because it disrupts routine and concentration, which I have in short enough supply already.

Pat, do you think these guys would have conceived more appropriate shots without rangefinders? Or were they just the type that would misthink anyway?

Most golfers, even many pretty good ones, don't know how far they hit different clubs anyway, and since the distance and type of shot you can hit with most clubs is affected by so many variables, the rangefinder both disrupts concentration and provides false comfort that you have assessed the shot.

Anyway, for only the very best players does knowing it's 136 to the hole rather than 132 contain information you can use reliably.

[A.G._Crockett]

Why are some posters viewing the issue and responding in the sole context of their home course, which I assume they were familiar with before laser range finders came along.

 

In my case, I think everything that I use it for at my home course would be even more significant away from home.  The fact that I use it for more than just getting a distance to the pin at home, where I've played so much over the years, adds weight to the argument, IMO.  But that could just be me.

Really, it's just another tool.  I agree with those who have said that if you have tunnel vision, this is another form, and that if you don't, this won't cause it.

[Bryan Izatt]

Why are some posters viewing the issue and responding in the sole context of their home course, which I assume they were familiar with before laser range finders came along.

 

Patrick,

Could you be explicit about who the "some posters" are, so that they could respond.

Did you mean to exclude tunnel vision on home courses in your original post?

[John Moore II]

Patrick-perhaps we use our home course as context because it is the only context that we have for using them. I have only used a range finder at my home club, so I do not know what its like to use them elsewhere. But the idea is the same no matter where you use them.

[JESII]

Pat,

I agree with you that laser rangefinders are useless for a ridiculously large percentage of the population...but so are ProV1's and drivers with screw in and out weights...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why are some posters viewing the issue and responding in the sole context of their home course, which I assume they were familiar with before laser range finders came along.

 

Patrick,

Could you be explicit about who the "some posters" are, so that they could respond.

Bryan,

Don't be so lazy, review the previous posts and see who they are.[/color]

Did you mean to exclude tunnel vision on home courses in your original post?

Most, if not all, golfers developed a feel for their home course long before laser range finders existed, so, they've seen the architecture outside of the narrow perspective of cross hairs on a reflective target.

Are you also suggesting that the intelligence of those reading these threads is so low that everything must be spelled out in great detail or they won't understand the gist of the thread ?[/color]

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()