News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« on: January 08, 2008, 01:24:42 PM »
I am a believer in angles. I think they create much of the variety, choice, interest and strategy of great golf. But is my belief well founded? On a 180 yard approach, for example, to a green protected by a bunker covering the right front third of the green, does it really matter where the shot is played from? How much width is required to make a difference? Or is the difficulty more psychological than real? Has anyone ever done the math to prove that angles really and truly do make a difference?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 01:51:15 PM »
Greg,

Good topic.

I think its generally conceded that with todays equipment and irrigation they matter less.  We don't need to bounce one in with fifty yards of roll as in Old Scotland.  It is comforting for most to know they can't come up short, and for the best it allows the same shot to be played, but with the lesser club if in between clubs, allowing an uphill birdie putt.

I once figured strategy at no more than two shots a round benefit.

I have also mapped out the angles.  If the green angles at 12 degrees, with no bunker cutting inside the outer edge of the green,  and we want to reward a shot landing 5 yards inside the rough cut, then from

100 yards out - fw 33 yards wide
150 yards out - fw 50 yards wide
180 yards out - fw 75 yards wide.

Of course, we can reduce the green angle on longer shots to reduce these widths or increase them for shorter shots, or bring the bunker further across.  However, just in observing, I don't think a full frontal opening is necessary to make a shot feel easier, because you can shade your shot away from the pin slightly, etc.  In fact, its that change of ball position, amount of opening, wind, distance, your confidence,etc. that makes a course play a little differently every day.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2008, 02:11:13 PM »
Haven't done the math. Don't plan to either as I don't think math can solve that problem anymore than it can identify an awesome golf course.

QUOTE
"On a 180 yard approach, for example, to a green protected by a bunker covering the right front third of the green, does it really matter where the shot is played from?"
END
Depends on what day?

Psychology matters, but you won't fool the good players for long.

Haven't done the math... as noted... but great golf has traditionally been a game of angles (choices) and local weather conditions. It's a game of negotiating, manipulating contours too.

If angles and subtleties didn't matter I'd start mailing in designs.

Call Jim.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 02:15:51 PM by Tony Ristola »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 02:41:16 PM »
Tony,

Good morning, afternoon, or evening, wherever you happen to be in the world!

I understand your point, which is why I mixed my answer.  At the same time, at some point, do you really think all design is intuitive?  At some point, don't you have to test your theories (perhaps seeing it in actual play) or as a professional gca ideally before building something?

Like it or not, at some point, there has to be a measurement, angle, or some type of quantification to get a design to play really right. If the green is too big or small, the front cut off too much, etc.  

One example that comes to mind is a cape hole.  I drew a few as an apprentice, but when I saw those built, the ones that had an angle over 30 degrees were simply unplayable.  20-25 degrees worked and looked better, and I use that sort of math in all subsequent designs on my own to make sure I haven't made the same (IMHO) mistake twice.

As to green angles, its possible to build a green at too steep an angle where no spot on the fw allows an open front. If you knew that approximate angle before bulldozing, wouldn't you try to lessen it to start with, rather than doze something in and say "Oh, crap!" and start over?

Yes, math comes in handy in gca, at least IMHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 03:50:28 PM »
Jeff,
(Good evening... this week)

Design is intuitive. Absolutely. It's local conditions, soils, maintenance choices (if they stick with it) combined into a package that offers variety within that property. What else can it be? Math? Only to the extent that it offers variety.

I don't use math to measure angles of greens, but I do use it to vary the length of holes and spread hazards about.

Intuition is why I'm in the field. I don't draw greens or bunker plans in detail, and I do ping-pong bunkers... before they're built.

For greens, depending on the property and builder, I'll rough out perimeter heights and interior heights and then massage from there. I don't think plans are sacred documents (unless some areas are so sanctioned by government)... I do believe intuition plays a huge part.  

Greens require that bit of intuition. And being there lets you build on the edge (if you so desire)... leave it for a while, and edit later in a jiffy if need be. Time is that valuable ingredient that lets decisions and/or adjustments be made after some thought. When intuition is challenged. Otherwise safe choices are made absent of time. Either in the field (during a "visit") or right from the start... during planning.

Recently I built green for a 270-330 yard par-4. After 4 weeks of looking (the irrigation squad was late in getting going) I widened the green by 6 feet at the back. No math could have made that decision... either way it would have worked... but time allowed intuition to be challenged...daily. The idea was to have the green... on the (narrow) edge... and as I widened the back I also extended the green another 8 meters. Now you can have a semi-blind putt from front to back. Where does math fit into that equation? The home computer made intuitive decisions. Fact is I wouldn't have never drawn the green as is on paper. In fact the front 2/5ths of the green (with only one pin position, and the best part of the green) would never have built as is. It just evolved as I sat on the dozer.

Greg,
I believe in angles too. Big time. Like contours, I think angles are the soul of the game. Width in the fairway allows for more angles and greens contours can change the best angle of approaching the hole. Math alone can't solve these problems. Intuition can.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 03:59:40 PM by Tony Ristola »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 04:16:39 PM »
Tony,

I don't disagree that the last minute changes can be intuitive to a degree.  Or that the last contouring should be done with flair, rather than a digital level.  I make field changes like you describe frequently.

On the other hand, I would draw and then shoot some basic grades to make sure the green was not all over the recommended slope for anticipated green speeds.  

Also, I am not sure I have ever seen anything intuitive in a soils report, or a mower spec that says it can mow a 3:1 slope, but no more..........

In general, I think the "Master Builder" syndrome is a myth.  There are many, many aspects of a good design that must adhere to some basic math, including some of the subtleties we have both discussed.  But, yes, the trick is to get a final product that doesn't appear too constricted by those guidelines and also to break the math guidelines every once in a while!  

So, we may be arguing about the same point from different ends of the string.  However, if you break rules too often, I think the design will not be all that great in the sense that it may not be all that functional for golfers.

Lastly, I recall being sent out by my mentors to see how our designs were really played.  At age 23, I was surprised, for example, to see how short the average male player really hit the ball, and to find that all male players overestimate how far they hit the ball.  Had I relied on my intuition in placing bunkers, etc. I would have been way, way off base.  

Later, I reached similar conclusions by watching my work in use, and comparing that to the Pelz and USGA shot dispersion studies.  While I try for a smaller than usual green on a few holes, I do it consciously as part of the design mix, but I know from experience that ignoring those basic numbers on average accuracy will not allow for a great design.  The intuition comes in estimating green speeds, how hard a green might be under normal maintenance, etc. and that takes years of play and experience.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 04:41:36 PM »
Greg,

In order for interesting angles to really work well, greens must be appropriately firm. Otherwise golf balls played from anywhere will "stick" on the green surface... shots from high- and low-handicappers alike.
jeffmingay.com

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2008, 04:51:17 PM »
Jeff,

Soils drive design decisions, and different soils will provide different playing conditions. As you know, properties aren't homogeneous, and not every soil map will cover all the variations.

Rules? Are made to be broken. Intuition dictates what the limit is and daily monitoring allows you to design on the edge...if you so desire. Planning, passing it on to builders and walking away usually translates to conservative choices.

Having taught hundreds upon hundreds of players, I know how both males and females attack the game. It was a valuable education. As was working in maintenance.

I use math to get variety in lengths, calculating work, but not for calculating angles. I'll vary angles (for holes and greens) but I'm not measuring them; usually I'm charting the variation in left-right-straight fashion.

You can plan to angle a green and then introduce some curve in that form. For me it happens more often than not. Hell, I'll create something I never dreamed of during planning. Hence, these aren't always last minute changes but are changes before the green is built or as it is built... taking into consideration other holes in the process.  I think leaving things merely to the last minute means you're missing a lot of intuitive opportunities during construction that are ignored or get plowed under if you're not there.

The builders don't care...that much and won't risk making the changes. Their intuition could cost them big bucks.

Jeff:
Howya doin?
I agree, but thankfully I haven't played a course like that (where a mediocre shots sticks) in a long time.

PS. Happy New Year guys.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 04:54:15 PM by Tony Ristola »

wsmorrison

Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 06:20:26 PM »
It isn't just angles dictated by the green if it is offset and the bunkering but also the fall-offs, slopes and/or contours on greens that combne with other features to determine the ideal line of approach.  When the design integrates all these factors in strategic ways, then the angles matter.  Taken to its extreme, you can have a straight away hole with a green without offset to the line of play and no bunkers or fall-offs and the slopes and contours alone can dictate ideal angles of approach.

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2008, 06:44:38 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys.

Tony, your approach is hard to argue with. Golf holes and golf courses are "places" and to create something that fits or works within a place it makes sense one ought to create within that place, to have one's intuition inspired that place.

I think, as Jeff B suggests, that Jeff B and Tony are saying much the same thing, just from different ends of the string. The bottom line is everyone believes that angles do effectively create different shot making demands, which will depend on other factors not the least of which is the receptivity of the greens.

But I'm still not sure anyone has proven (as much as I would like them to) that a significant advantage may be gained, for example, by placing a shot near a hazard versus playing 20 yards away. When Harmon was coaching Tiger he wrote a book, I don't have it with me nor do I remember the title, but in a section on strategy and course management he said for Tiger and the rest of us, just hit it down the middle because there is no REAL advantage in approach from the middle versus the ideal spot in the landing zone. Say it ain't so!





Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2008, 10:03:57 PM »
 8)

This kind?  Values in yards, but could be meters..  pretty small incremental difference in carry yardage when distance left or right, i.e., angles < 20 degrees are considered

Case, Measure   Straight distance A, cross distance  B, hypotenuse  C,   Angle 1, incremental Length %
1   55   5   55.2   5.2   0.41%
2   55   10   55.9   10.3   1.64%
3   55   15   57.0   15.3   3.65%
4   55   20   58.5   20.0   6.41%
5   55   55   77.8   45.0   41.42%
6   100   5   100.1   2.9   0.12%
7   100   10   100.5   5.7   0.50%
8   100   15   101.1   8.5   1.12%
9   100   20   102.0   11.3   1.98%
10   100   25   103.1   14.0   3.08%
11   100   35   105.9   19.3   5.95%
12   150   5   150.1   1.9   0.06%
13   150   10   150.3   3.8   0.22%
14   150   20   151.3   7.6   0.88%
15   150   30   153.0   11.3   1.98%
16   150   40   155.2   14.9   3.49%
17   200   5   200.1   1.4   0.03%
18   200   10   200.2   2.9   0.12%
19   200   20   201.0   5.7   0.50%
20   200   30   202.2   8.5   1.12%
21   200   40   204.0   11.3   1.98%
22   250   15   250.4   3.4   0.18%
23   250   25   251.2   5.7   0.50%
24   250   35   252.4   8.0   0.98%
25   250   45   254.0   10.2   1.61%
26   250   55   256.0   12.4   2.39%
27   300   5   300.0   1.0   0.01%
28   300   10   300.2   1.9   0.06%
29   300   20   300.7   3.8   0.22%
30   300   30   301.5   5.7   0.50%
31   300   40   302.7   7.6   0.88%
32   300   50   304.1   9.5   1.38%
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 10:08:50 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2008, 11:39:10 PM »
It isn't just angles dictated by the green if it is offset and the bunkering but also the fall-offs, slopes and/or contours on greens that combne with other features to determine the ideal line of approach.  When the design integrates all these factors in strategic ways, then the angles matter.  Taken to its extreme, you can have a straight away hole with a green without offset to the line of play and no bunkers or fall-offs and the slopes and contours alone can dictate ideal angles of approach.

Wayne,

Yes it all works together, but to actually create a design, I must start somewhere, or I would just freeze up for all the unlimited options.  IMHO, the basic angle of the green is a good place to start, and it makes sense to consider whether it should be about 5, 10, 20, 30, or 45 or more degrees to the line of play.  Exactness isn't required. As Tony notes, add a curve to a green shape and the angle changes a few degrees.

Once set, then all the little features and the basic slopes, roll offs, etc. come into play.  The math is just a start to get it to play basically right.  Of course, you do have to look at it in the field, and things that look right on plan often don't in the field.  Typically, any green set more than 25-30 degrees to the line of play looks more like 90 degrees across the line of play, for example.  And, bunkers often look further across the green in 1:1 scale at ground level than in 30 scale plan view.

I got to thinking about great ideas that were intuitive - but wrong.  The intuitive notion that the earth was flat came to mind as a good example.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 01:25:17 AM »
The contrast in basic design and construction methodology betwen Tony and Jeff is quite interesting, and seems to get right down to a core philosophy of design and construction.

If one who is not an architect, is evaluating a course, I wonder if the person evaluating actually does sense the difference in a course more designed from a basic set of formulaic assumptions or experiences, or do they feel the designer's intuition as he negotiated with the property?  Or, would architects who have built many courses, see the formula VS intuition even sooner in the evaluation?

I don't know if I could be consistant on this premise, but I 'suspect' I could identify the style and M.O. of the architect (between Tony and Jeff), after hearing Tony's stated approach to design based on knowing many kinds of golfers and their shot making capabilities, his observation of conditions on and in the ground and setting (atmospherically), previous maintenance experience, and his use of an on-going monitoring of the progress of construction, using intuition as integral to the process.  Not at all denigrating Jeff's work because I think he does know the perameters of golfer's tendencies and B&I characteristics in terms of distances and angles.  But I think the formulaic core values would come through in a more consistent course that would become more predictable after repeat play, where Tony's might come through as one of more interesting variablilies and options over repeat play, possibly because of more unconventional restraints applied in construction,  resultant from intuition.  

I found this phrase interesting:
Quote
One example that comes to mind is a cape hole.  I drew a few as an apprentice, but when I saw those built, the ones that had an angle over 30 degrees were simply unplayable.

Jeff, does that mean your mentors allowed associates to design/build holes outside of what might work as a golf functional matter?  Did they just look at the plans, and not visit the property as it was being constructed?  Where was the oversight and master knowledge that > 30* "were simply unplayable".  That sounds rather absolute.  :-\  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 08:37:53 AM »
RJ,

Mostly it means that they built them and perhaps I was the only one who saw it that way, vis a vis the 30 degree angle.  

It was actually Jim Colbert who pointed that little fact out to us.  I think his exact words were, "You ask me to hit it as hard as I can, I mean, really wear out the face of my driver to carry that water and then also make it stop on a dime?"  What are you, crazy? It can't be done!  At least not by me, and I am (this was the 1980's) only the 12th best golfer on Tour!  Why, you must be the best damn golfer in the world if you can hit that shot!"

It made an impression on me, and of course, I was forced to admit I wasn't the best golfer in the world! ::)

He was right, of course. If you think about long water carries, with perhaps no more than 35 yards of roll out space (and less assuming you don't just clear the water by a yard) it was just hard to hold fw's on steep dl holes with water inside.  Also, a guy like Colbert wouldn't try to hook/slice the ball 30 degrees worth with water on the inside.  A typical controlled draw would only be 5-10 degrees, even for those who had the shot.

Maybe with higher spin balls today things could change and change design, but there are some physics you just can't overcome.

KN did allow associates to design, but I presume no more than any other mid size shop.  And, they did visit all their courses, although at a time when all their associates had at least 5 years experience, and work load was heavy, we naturally got more freedom.

KN were better than most, but it amazes me how many gca's continue to build things the same way, despite me (at least) looking at them and knowing its not as good as it could be, whether sharp doglegs, shallow bunkers, greens graded for 1970 green speeds, or whatever.

I really fail to see how measuring golf holes (mine and others) that work or don't to see what really makes them tick, for my own future design improvement would warrant any criticisms from anyone, esp. from someone who has turned down invites to play one of my courses, yet critiques it based on a few photos, saying "I didn't get everything out of the site......"  

Yes, I mean you, and you could look it up! :D

To use Wayne's example of little fall offs, I often take my digital level with me when golfing. If I see a little subtle contour on a green that works, I measure it, measure the slope, etc. to see exactly how its built and why it seems to work.  Again, how is this formulaic?

After signing off last night, I saw one of those reality shows for a moment, on CMT.  Somehow, this one was picking bartenders.  The minute I watched, they dismissed some, saying that they were so focused on flare (think Tom Cruise mixing drinks in Cocktail) that they forgot that they need flare within certain parmeters, i.e. a screwdriver only tastes right if the drink is about 1/3 vodka and 2/3 OJ.

Most design disiplines are about the same. It was an apt comparison.  That's all I am saying.  When things work in golf design, they work within certain parameters and at some point, it takes some kind of actual measurement to assure you are within those parameters.  We all do it one way or another, but may differ in how we describe it.

 


« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 08:42:43 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 11:48:34 AM »
Jeff B,

I think I might have a "Unified String Theory" brewing which might help explain how close you and Tony may be, but I have to go find and review a couple of sources first.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 12:41:42 PM »
Let me know! It may be a parallel to my "Silly String" theory..... ;D

One more musing about me taking it on the chin for actually trying to improve my designs by studying others in detail, rather than winging it....

Do we think CB Mac, Hugh Wilson, Pete Dye, and Tom Doak, who all went to study (and in many cases measure) the great holes of Scotland were also off base in doing so?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Druzisky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 05:49:37 PM »
Geeezzz..this string theory of yours is giving me rope burn!

It seems math on the front end and intuition on the back end works great for me.  I want to get as much within the ballpark as possible in planning and design stages so I am not scrambling to correct things while working the details in the field.

How about this - a lot of courses that were developed in the recent past based on intuition of the market maybe should have done the math first!

Jeff, I kind of like a full frontal opening! ;D

DbD

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2008, 05:58:04 PM »
OK. Here goes. I promised something, I gotta deliver . . . something. Murf's Unified String Theory? Instead of planes, trains and automobiles, let's consider architects, spiders and bicycles. My reference is to examples offered by Arthur Koestler writing fifty years ago in, "The Act of Creation, A study of the conscious and unconscious in science and art", about spiders and the webs they weave and the skill of riding a bicycle and their relationship to the creative process.

Koestler wrote that the common spider will suspend its web on anywhere from three to twelve points, depending on the lie of the land, but the radial threads will ALWAYS intersect the laterals at EQUAL ANGLES and the centre of the web will ALWAYS be at its centre of gravity. The spider employs a flexible STRATEGY in choosing points of attachment to construct a web that suits the environmental conditions, but the form of the completed web will always be polygonal, determined by a fixed CODE OF RULES built into the spider's nervous system.

In Koestler's words, "The exercise of a skill is always under the dual control (a) of a fixed code of rules (which may be innate or acquired by learning) and (b) of a flexible strategy, guided by environmental pointers—the 'lie of the land".

Now on to bicycles and what Koestler calls, HIDDEN PERUSADERS. "Everybody can ride a bicycle but no one knows how it is done", notes Koestler, adding, "The cyclist obeys a code of rules which is specifiable, but which he can not specify. . . The controls of a skilled activity generally function below the level of consciousness on which that activity takes place. The code is a hidden persuader."

Much of golf course architecture, perhaps all great golf course design, may fall within the realm of strategic choices or flexible application of a fixed code of rules in accordance with the lie of the land. The rules may be intuitively known or acquired by learning and since golf course architecture is not nearly as complicated as riding a bike, many of the rules are not just specifiable, but in fact can also be specified.

Now this all seems very depressing for the creative at heart because it makes it seem like golf course architecture is a pure exercise of skill, endlessly repeated, and that creativity and originality have nothing to do with it. Whether or not that is the case, I think a very strong argument could be made that the bulk of what passes for brilliance in golf course design is not creativity but rather a very, very skillful and strategic application of rules.

A great designer will play by these rules whether he "knows" them or not, in the sense of being able to articulate them. I think it may also be possible to be able to articulate and design based on a "set of rules" that are really a limited and poor representation or distortion of the whole code that another designer intuitively knows or to think that a code of rules may be strategically applied without really knowing the 'lie of the land'. The results are then less than inspiring and I think this is what Tony is getting at. Ironically, someone who who is able to articulate a set of rules may "know" less than another who intuits the whole code of rules and is better able to strategically apply the rules.

Now I don't know if I've tied the loose ends of the string together. Hopefully it's a start. No need, Jeff, for you to abandon that pocket protector just yet. :D

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2008, 06:31:55 PM »
Steve,

These numbers are the kind of thing I was wondering about at the outset before veering into the string theory thing. Your math tells me if I'm 200 yards out and 20 yards off centre, my angle of approach is 5.7 degrees different than if I'm dead centre in the middle of the fairway and I'm a yard further away. Strategically, does the 5.7 degree angle provide a real advantage worth, for example, skirting a hazard to get the angle? I kinda doubt it.

We tend to think of angles in two dimensions and should not forget the trajectory of the ball which adds a third dimension. The math is probably a pretty complicated calculus, maybe one the computer game programmers have figured it out.

For the record, I found the Harmon reference I'd referred to in a earlier post, "The Four Cornerstones of Winning Golf". I should clarify that he does NOT say angles don't make any difference, in fact, he says "good course managers pick a landing area in the fairway that will put them in the most strategic position to attack the flag with their approach shot" but later in the section, "Dead Center of the Fairway is Fine" he contends that since even most PGA tour players are not accurate enough to consistently place the ball in a certain segment of the fairway and since most courses amateurs play don't have many tucked pins, he recommends always aiming down the middle unless there is extreme trouble to one side in which case he would suggest aiming to the opposite side of the fairway, away from the trouble.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2008, 07:14:16 PM »
Greg,

Its a little scary, but I actually understood your theory. I believe its substantially correct.  Two points:

David D summed up my approach as succintly as possible:  Start with math, finish with intuition.  It gives the best of both worlds.

I agree all can't articulate well, and some of my straight ahead, rock and roll posts here, or on cybergolf.com are an attempt to articulate the difficult to articulate concepts in as simple a language as possible.  My thoughts will never require you to purchase an English to Golf Course Architect translation book!

That said, I don't know if there is the implied correlation that if you can articulate, you can't design. If there is, I'm really screwed!  ::)  I think the impression of articulate vs artistic (and the idea that they can't co-exist) is still more of a romantic notion than actual fact on the design process.

The reason is that, like the spider, having a set of rules that almost always work in most known environmental conditions is not the same as having 18 template holes forced on to the landscape, which is what I think people imagine.  

If you think of golf course design rules not as being set in stone (no par three opening hole, for example) but more as being like those old botany plant keys, where you ID the biggest factor first (opposite or altnerate leaves for example) which narrows the choice from twenty to ten trees, and then another factor, and then another, until the answer is obvious, I think this concept becomes clear.

Prefernces are based on experience as a starting point (like the spider) but adapted to each new site via the same process. Using the exact same design process is, IMHO, actually MORE likely to result in creating different courses on different sites than using intuition.  

The reason is, our intuition is also repetitive, absent any real reason to change, i.e., we brush our teeth before shaving out of habit, and we put bunkers in certain eye appealing arrangements repeatedly, because that pattern appeals to OUR eye, which may or may not actually be the best design solution for that particular hole, client, moment in time, etc.

I believe it is NOT A COINCIDENCE that the increased number of GD Best New Placement/Awards, etc. my courses have gotten in the last five years is precisely because I have adopted the "approach driven process" based on at least some preconcieved ideas, providing I can find good places to put them or know enough to discard them.  The key is, I am flexible enough (mentally, physically, I need yoga..... :-\) to recognize the limitations of that approach, and know when to possibly vary the rules.  In fact, its easy if one of the rules is to consciously vary the rules!

Anyway, more power to anyone who can design consistently well using pure intuition.  However, they need to know what the limitations of a purely intuitive approach are, because there are some. And, as you say, I think previous experiences rattle around each designers head, whether they choose to label them intuition, or known examples through study.

By the way, I have asked a number of pros about the preferred side of the fw.  Like your guy, they say basically that they "intuitively" know that the risk of going in the rough is greater than the risk involved in flying a bunker from the fw.  After all, in a fw lie, they can overclub and hit more spin to bring the ball back to the pin as an alternate way to take the bunker out of play.  

The biggest lie on gca (next to "Ran, my 2008 contribution is on the way!) is that notion of wide fw and frontal openings being the key to a rebirth of golf design. If process driven, designing for how things are and will be provides better solutions than designing for what was and what you hope to be again.  Its called nostalgia, and very few places allow it to rule like it does here!

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 07:18:46 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2008, 07:18:51 PM »
Jeff, I do wish you'd look it up, about me saying you didn't seem to get the most out of a sight I never saw.  I don't remember saying that specifically, unless it is only part of something I said with a different context.  I hope I didn't say that about your using a site to the best design advantage based on a photo.  But, if I did, put that one in the category of what Mike Dugger suggests on another thread where he asks 'we' GCA.com posters to think about something said over the years that we would like to retract.

I wonder how many of the world's greatly regarded golf holes with unique and exciting design features would be built if 'known' perameters of what works were strictly adhered to?  I do think that a preconceived notion of the circumstances of slope-speed-distance that hold fast to rigid perameters leaves a void between rational and whimsical, where the fine distinction of a functionally fun factor might be lost.  Sure, there is a tipping point to the physics of certain parameters that can't work in the physical world.  But, there is an intuitive process and understanding of the dynamics of the game of golf played in a varying set of environmental/physical locational criteria that I think some of the great designers have embraced more as a second nature to their understanding of design-constrcution, than a computed/sliderule guidance of preconcieved beliefs that something can't work.

I'd be interested if others would name a famous hole where an adherent to slide rule parameters wouldn't have built it, but an intuitively creative designer did go forward with great success.  Since someone was talking about this course on another thread, I'll volunteer this string of holes... Lawsonia, 6-7-8.  I don't think a strictly sliderule and parameters designer would ever have built those holes as they are, particularly in succession.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2008, 07:26:10 PM »

The biggest lie on gca (next to "Ran, my 2008 contribution is on the way!) is that notion of wide fw and frontal openings being the key to a rebirth of golf design. If process driven, designing for how things are and will be provides better solutions than designing for what was and what you hope to be again.  Its called nostalgia, and very few places allow it to rule like it does here!

Jeff

Its only a lie because folks won't maintain a course as a course rather than a garden.  Perhaps the fact that so many landscappers being in the business has something to do with courses being treated like gardens.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2008, 07:46:01 PM »
RJ,

I hear the search engine isn't as good as it could be. You will have to trust me on that, and it was  on a Quarry thread.  But, no matter, I am just busting your chops! ;)

Re-read my last post and see if you can grasp that you are really thinking in black and white.  Re-read the part in Greg's post about the spider.  Its apt.

Take a fw cross slope for example.  You imagine, and I have heard that some gca's default to a maximum of 4% fw cross slope as formula, which is the only solution you can apparently imagine from someone who measures those kind of things.  As explained on the Colbert Hills thread, I widened fws, because the natural side slopes were steep and couldn't be changed because of rock. I also factored in that Zoysia allows steeper side slopes.  Thus, I have more roll in the fw than most would have, but have still achieved one of my "rules" that a shot should be able to hold a fw.  And, golfers enjoy the course because they can hold the fw.

If I was one of those gca's that leveled everything to 4% just to be safe, I might miss some ops.  Of course, we all miss some because of whatever philosophies we bring in.  Adhering to those may be intuition, so be it. (and at Colbert Hills some was, because I had never used Zoysia and the wind that affects design there changes every day)  

I just process information in a bit more concrete way than you imagine by playing and studying Zoysia grass fw courses to see first hand how a ball reacted, which helped form my specific design for those holes.  So, I do what you say.  Maybe I am just describing how certain things become second nature to golf architects over time, and destroying a somewhat romantic notion.

If you go back to the original question, I do think that setting a basic angle for a green is a good thing to do, taking into account shot length, prevailing winds, etc. I have played too many long par 4's with no frontal opening that I and most others just can't play.  While you imagine my stuff as being the same every time out, I imagine the designer of that unplayable hole as apologizing for it, in the name of "intuition."

Both scenarios happen all the time.  The truth is out there, probably somewhere in the middle.

I am not familiar with Lawsonia so I can't comment on those holes.  When I read your question about great holes, by and large I think most of them follow general tenets of playability.  I think you are thinking of quirk holes, which aren't necessarily great, except in their uniqueness.  

Is the sixth at Riv a hole you would want to see more than once as a conversation piece?  The now legendary original 12th at Garden City?  I agree they are great holes and they break (or broke) the rules of good design.  (and your slide rule references are really conveying the wrong idea on design rules and preferences)  If a course had 18 of those holes, would it be a great course, or is part of their greatness the change of pace they provide?

The simple fact is that in building a golf course, all gca's ask themselves things like "what slope would hold a ball on this fw?"  Eventually, measurements like angles, % slope, fw width, turf cut height, etc. have to figure into it.

Hey, my third grade math teacher was right! I DO use this crap! ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2008, 08:09:25 PM »

The biggest lie on gca (next to "Ran, my 2008 contribution is on the way!) is that notion of wide fw and frontal openings being the key to a rebirth of golf design. If process driven, designing for how things are and will be provides better solutions than designing for what was and what you hope to be again.  Its called nostalgia, and very few places allow it to rule like it does here!

Jeff

Its only a lie because folks won't maintain a course as a course rather than a garden.  Perhaps the fact that so many landscappers being in the business has something to do with courses being treated like gardens.  

Ciao

Sean,

I actually leave frontal openings, in part because its easy to imagine a much drier future.

I still wonder two things:

Based on my readings of the Golden Age gca's golfers in America were trying to play the aerial shots even back in the 20's.  Perhaps it was drier in the summer, but greens were being watered even back then.

Lastly, turf needs what turf needs. Based on the mid level courses I see, most have inadequate irrigation systems and most put down less than the textbooks would say turf needs.  And, "overwatering" leads to disease, tire ruts, etc.  Not to mention possibly costing money.

While its possible to put a course right on the edge by underwatering, its also dangerous.  I believe most courses get somewhere between the absolute minimum for turf survival and the max, which is about where it should be.  

As such, I don't think that overwatering is near the problem some here think it is, at least percentage wise by number of courses.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Bourgeois

Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2008, 10:23:21 PM »
Dr. Pythagoras Jeff,

Apologies for this scatter-shot (wide angle? wide ranging? dispersed?) post...

Three sets of questions:
1. How can we discuss angles without knowing who we're talking about?  Isn't the utility of angles a function of the shot-dispersal patterns of the golfer?

I'm curious to know, do designers take into account data such as these from Dave Pelz:



This actually is for par 3s, but extrapolating (uh oh) to approach shots on par 4s, it looks to me like angles don't matter to some (0s and 20s), matter potentially to some (tour pros), and matter a lot to the rest (10s -- unlabeled but I think they're the yellow-green teardrop -- and 30s).

To design for the pros, it looks like you might need firm and fast because with that dispersal pattern plus short game they likely are to go right at the flag every time.  It's hard to see how angles ever matter, though. (Freak-tiny greens?!)

On the other hand, it looks like 10s and 30s could use some serious width to enable them to play to their personal Position A given "teardrop" shot dispersion patterns.  For example, those 10s: a green that's covered front and right, they are going to have to position themselves for an approach from wayyyy left, yes? *Assuming misses still hurt -- that's Question 2 below...

Maybe courses aren't wide enough to accommodate these dispersal patterns?

And given that these teardrops mirror each other, doesn't it stand to reason that if you designed for one group's angles (e.g., lots of openings front-right) the other group could say legitimately that angles don't matter?

2. Is golf still a game of misses, and do misses determine the validity of angles?  (I can see where it no longer is so much at the Tour level, but what kind of price does the 10 pay these days for a miss?

3. Is it possible that angles don't come into play because courses aren't designed to allow for them?  I can see your point about "angle limits" for shots such as those on cape holes.  But angles still matter there, right?

Are greens built big enough to allow for great variety of hole locations?  For angles to matter, don't you need more than firm and fast, in particular pins shunted off to the edges of the greens?

Working back to the tee, with big greens don't you also need enough width to account for golfers' games and their assessments of their games?

Mark

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back