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Art Roselle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« on: January 08, 2008, 11:22:09 AM »
As many have noted through the years, the shift from match play to medal play has had a negative impact on many aspects of golf from architecture to pace-of-play to the increasing complexity of the rules.  The problem with stroke play always comes back to questions of fairness.  Players have to have a way to finish every hole and there is a general sense that the impact of one bad swing should not disproportionately impact the entire round or tournament.  So, we need pages of rules and decisions on the rules to handle every possible circumstance.  In designing a course, architects have to be careful that bunkers are not “too deep” and swales are not too steep and anything different or quirky becomes a magnet for claims of unfairness.  All of this is a negative for the game in my opinion, but I think the “card and pencil” mentality is here to stay.  Despite that, here is a modest proposal for one possible compromise.

What if golf introduced the concept of maximum score per hole in all events, not just for handicap purposes?  Maybe it could be 2 strokes worse than a player’s handicap on a given hole.  So, if you carry an 8 handicap, then your max would be a triple on the first 8 handicap holes and a double-bogey on the rest.  Max for a scratch player (or better) would just be double-bogey on every hole.  With that in place, I think they could eliminate about 70% of the rules and just go back to a pure “play it as it lies” mentality.  The penalty for virtually everything could be stroke and distance and for more severe infractions (e.g. playing the wrong ball, improving one’s lie, etc.) maybe the penalty would just be to take your max.  We would no longer need differing rules for water hazards, lateral hazards, unplayable lies, immovable obstructions, etc. etc.  There would still be some rules that might carry a one shot penalty, such as moving a ball at rest, but most would be stroke-and-distance or “loss” of hole (i.e. max score).  Some cases might seem somewhat harsh or unfair, but it cannot be THAT bad.  Worst case you just get the maximum score and move on.  That would reduce the fairness gripe and would solve the “finishing-the-hole” problem.  Granted, you would lose the occasional Van de Velde moment and, in theory, a player could win a medal event on the 16th hole (if he had a big lead), but that is pretty rare and so what?  I think the benefits would far outweigh the negatives.  If Tiger hits two out of bounds, then he cards his double and moves on.  The only extra rules necessary would be for outside agencies (squirrel steals ball) and some abnormal ground conditions (GUR, etc.).  I would even scrap the concept of immovable obstructions and the like.  If you are a tour player and you hit it in the grandstand, then you can replay the shot with a penalty or try to hack it off the bleachers.  Don’t complain, just don’t hit it in there.  You are a professional for God’s sake.  Is stroke and distance too harsh for a water hazard?  Maybe, but it sure would be simple.  I guess you could even leave those rules in place, but it starts to be a slippery slope and I am not convinced that it wouldn't be easier to just stick with stroke and distance.

I started thinking about this because my son plays in some junior tournaments where they have a “double par max” rule in effect.  It is a great rule to keep play moving and it rarely affects the outcome.  If a kid hits his third into a bunker and then skulls it such that it embeds in the lip, he does not call a rules official over to determine whether the lip is a “closely mown area” or part of the bunker or to decide where he gets his drop.  Generally, he just picks it up and takes his 8.  It would be radical, but it works.  Also, it is not that foreign a concept.  The USGA already uses a version of this in determining handicaps with its “equitable stroke control”.  Also, the double-max rule is already effectively in place in tournaments using any sort of Stableford scoring system.

In addition to simplifying the basic rules, such a change might:

- Free up architects to design more interesting features
- Discourage courses from converting par 5s to par 4s, since such a change would in effect make it “easier” for players (lower the maximum score).
- Speed up play
- Encourage Tour players to take more risks, which might add excitement to the game
- Eliminate the need for distinctions between match and stroke play in the rules ("loss of hole" would become the equivalent of "take maximum score")

I am well aware that it will never happen, so there is no need to lecture me on the all the reasons the USGA or R&A will not actually do it.  I just thought it might be good food for thought.  I would be interested in any opinions about why it would not work in practice or what negative consequences it might have that make it just a bad idea.  Some might worry about the the purity of not always "holing out", but given that the history of the game is really in match play, I don't know that there is any real historic tradition attached to that concept.

As a newbie, I apologize if some version of this topic has already been discussed.  If so, just point me to the thread.  Thanks

John Kavanaugh

Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 11:27:16 AM »
Art,

I believe that at private clubs 99% of the membership does play some type of maximum score rule.  Outside of a tournament I do not recall seeing a member of a club, playing with other members, ever hit more than two tee shots on any given hole.

Sometimes in match play a 9 does beat a 10 and that is always fun to watch.  We will play out those holes to the finish.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2008, 11:29:01 AM »
Great thoughts.
Thanks for sharing.
Sounds like a solid alternative to me.

-Ted

John Kavanaugh

Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 11:34:24 AM »
Could we please hear from anyone who still plays medal play outside of tournaments?  I don't think you are out there.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 11:51:42 AM »
Every one of the 15 or so guys who rotate in the group I play with on Sat. mornings are solely interested in what they shoot.

FWIW, there's virtually no gambling done, either.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Art Roselle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 11:53:21 AM »
I agree that most people play match play and in practice most people play some sort of maximum rule (I sure do).  Even in match play, however, there seems to be a lot of potentially unnecessary discussion about complicated rules, where the ball crossed the line of a hazard, what is a temporary movable obstruction, etc.  I think most of this is bleed over from rules that were developed for stroke play and so we are stuck with them despite the format most people play.

I have also occasionally thought that the penalty for everything should be distance, but no stroke.  If you hit it in the ocean, then just re-tee but hit 2 and not 3.  That would be even more radical, but it would be less penal and would certainly make the game more fun for some (like me).  I know why that might not makes sense (if you hit your three foot putt four feet past, could you just retry it?), but I can dream.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 12:30:34 PM »
Every one of the 15 or so guys who rotate in the group I play with on Sat. mornings are solely interested in what they shoot.

FWIW, there's virtually no gambling done, either.

Ken


I think this is something very key in regards to architecture. I think the mentality of how one looks at a course changes completely for golfers in general when playing medal or match. IMHO, the typical golfer when playing for a score doesn't want the course to hinder their goal, while in match play, the holes as the course unfolds will play to the players specific strengths and weaknesses and if the player is astute enough will see the oppurtunities and know when to make their move.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Kavanaugh

Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2008, 03:03:42 PM »
Every one of the 15 or so guys who rotate in the group I play with on Sat. mornings are solely interested in what they shoot.

FWIW, there's virtually no gambling done, either.

Ken

k,

What kind of golfers are these.  I have never heard of such a thing.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 03:10:31 PM »
Every one of the 15 or so guys who rotate in the group I play with on Sat. mornings are solely interested in what they shoot.

FWIW, there's virtually no gambling done, either.

Ken

k,

What kind of golfers are these.  I have never heard of such a thing.

Mostly they aren't very good. I'm a 12 index, and there's only one or two in the bunch that are lower than that. About half of them are in the 18-23 range.

It's actually been a joy to play with them. I've played a lot of golf with guys in the 5-10 range over the years, because that's what I was. But I got sick of guys complaining about every shot. It got to be four hours of torture.

These guys hit it, find it and hit it again. And they rarely complain about anything.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

John Kavanaugh

Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2008, 03:17:36 PM »
k,

Sounds like a fun group.  I just can't see the point in playing by the rules without competition.

TEPaul

Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2008, 06:58:29 PM »
Art:

You're right about one thing---eg the USGA and the R&A (the only Rules making bodies) would never dream of doing such a thing, not in a million years. Right off the bat most of both boards would inevitably say that just undermines the very nature of stroke play golf.

But I certainly understand your point and purpose---ie simplify the Rules and speed up the game.

There have been some proposals sort of aimed at the same purpose on here but most of them are aimed at the whole nature of the various "handicap posting systems" around the world.

The "Handicap System" that has created the greatest "stroke play" mentality by far is the USGA's. The reason is they concentrate on "quantity" posting rather than "quality" posting for handicap purposes. The USGA's Handicap System encourages all golfers to post for handicap purposes whenever they play provided they play a minimum of 13 holes.

Most of the rest of the world uses a handicap system where golfers only need to post for handicap purposes on so-called "medal days". The rest of the time they don't even allow handicap posting I don't believe.

So even if the vast vast majority of American golfers play match play they understand they are encouraged to post their score for handicap purposes and so they've gotten into something of a single round gross score mentality because of our handicap system for the simple reason that's what they must post----eg a single round gross score.

But in match play they can use the "Equitable Stroke Control" system in the handicap system if they take too many strokes on any hole.

So why doesn't that solve the problem?

Because after over thirty years of the "Equitable Stroke Control" system the use and compliance with it has never even reached 40%. Most people don't even know what the limitations are that apply to their handicaps and the reason for all that is the ESC numbers have been changed too many times.

Matter of fact I've seen more than one handicap committee chairman who'd never even heard of ESC!  ;)

In my opinion, Art, the most effective way to get people to pick up on a hole in match play when there is no reason of any kind to proceed, even for handicap purposes, is to do away with the USGA's system of "quantity" score posting for handicap purposes and just go to the "medal day" method of handicap posting as much of the rest of the world does.

That I believe would seriously reduce the single round gross score stroke play mentality.

We've had many discussions on here about that. Rich Goodale is a big advocate that the USGA's Handicap System should do that like the rest of the world.

I've always maintained that would be difficult to do over here because Americans may not accept the concept of "Medal Days" for handicap posting, they've become so used to their way even if they've never really complied with it properly.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 07:03:53 PM by TEPaul »

JohnV

Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2008, 09:00:32 PM »
Four about 7 or 8 years, John Kirk, myself and two other guys played almost every Saturday or Sunday at Pumpkin Ridge.  We always played stroke play.  Mainly because one of the guys wanted my occasional 8s or 9s to count. >:(

We always walked and played in under 4 hours and frequently could have played faster but for others in front of us.

We were all good players (5 HDCP or less), we holed out everything (well there was the occasional glitch with one player) but we did have our share of lost balls and if you hadn't hit a provisional, you had to make that walk back to the tee.  None of that has much effect on pace of play.  

What affects pace the most is being ready to play when it is your turn.

My ex-wife and 4 of her friends would frequently play as a group of 5 about 90 minutes behind us.  None of them could break 100 (most shot 120 or more) for quite a few years, but since they hit it quick they never held up play, got around in 4 hours and were the only group allowed to play as a fivesome on weekends.  Again, they were ready to play when it was their turn.

I'm tired of people saying the number of strokes taken is the reason for slow play.  The slowest players I've seen are the best players who take the least strokes (see the PGA Tour).  If people would just step up and hit it, they would probably play better, could hit all the shots they need and be done a lot quicker.

Jim Nugent

Re:Rules and GCA - a modest proposal
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 02:06:05 AM »
Doesn't the USGA already do something like this, when they figure slope and handicap?  i.e. aren't there adjustments, based on maximum allowable scores on any given hole, that depend on how good a player you are?  

Speed of play: I wonder if that doesn't depend more on basic supply and demand.  Just read that between 1970 and 1997, the number of rounds played in the U.S. increased from 265 million to 550 million.  107.5% more.  But the number of golf courses went from 10,188 to 16,010.  57% more.  (http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Sloan-School-of-Management/15-912Spring-2005/708A0B31-A428-41AF-900C-2D73A1938A0E/0/callaway_golf_b1.pdf see page 3.)  

U.S. courses had 32% more rounds played on them in 1997 compared to 1970.  An average of around 8000 extra rounds per course.  Seems like that has to slow things down.  



 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 08:12:02 AM by Jim Nugent »

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