[JWinick]

First off, I just joined this discussion group and I look forward to getting to know you all.  I'm an avid golfer (member at Olympia Fields) and a mediocre armchair golf course critic.

Recently, I got back from a trip to Florida to visit my folks.   Their golf course, Frenchman's Creek, is a 36-hole facility in Palm Beach Gardens.  The two courses are in great condition, but, like many Florida golf courses, feature a lot of water.

On both courses, 14 of the 18 holes feature water prominently.   You can shoot a good round in the low-to-mid 80s and still lose a sleeve or two of golf balls.  Believe it or not, I've been told that 14 of 18 is low for Florida golf.  Some courses feature water on every hole.

The dilemma is water is great for selling homes.  Everyone wants a home that oversees a golf hole with water.  Since the economics of golf-only are fairly limited, I'm not sure how much you can avoid its overuse.  

What I'd like to see is the course to grow the rough bordering the water so that balls don't fall into the water.  Most Florida golf courses seem to lack deep rough and the grading of the hole seems to send balls into the water.  

I know Tom Doak has brought up the economics of golf course construction.  Is there much you can do here???  It seems like water and Florida golf is inevitable.    

[jeffwarne]

JWinick,
Welcome.

Just convince the average Florida upscale homebuyer that the view of a centerline bunker(nowadays it would have sexy ragged edges of course) is far more coveted and valuable than a lagoon  view

[J_ Crisham]

JWinick' Welcome to the group_ I thought we had a limit on the number of Olympia Fields guys we let in! You guys are taking over the site, the good news is you guys know what in the hell you're talking about. Oh by the way , I'm a Beverly guy.

[Lloyd_Cole]

What I'd like to see is the course to grow the rough bordering the water so that balls don't fall into the water.  Most Florida golf courses seem to lack deep rough and the grading of the hole seems to send balls into the water.  
 

Welcome JW
The trick, when going to Florida, is to leave your clubs at home. Fishing is good there I hear.

Joking aside, your suggestion opens another can of worms - pace of play. If there is one good thing to be said about excessive use of water, it is that the reload is not slowed by looking for balls.

At our scruffy little course in W. Mass I'm going to try (it won't be easy) to get them to tidy up the rough surrounding the creeks and marsh areas as, given that several of these hazards are blind, it is a terrible time waster. The player does not know if the ball is in the hazard or not, and, quite rightly, wants to assume it isn't, which means we look for 5 minutes...every time.

Now, I'm all for a buffer of short or semi rough to stop a ground ball from entering a hazard, judiciously placed bunkers can help too, but long grass almost always means slow play. As if it wasn't slow enough.

[Dean Paolucci]

JWinick

Welcome to the treehouse!

[Mike Sweeney]

See Sugarloaf Mountain opening in one month. It is a housing community and while they are probably not selling too many homes right now, I am guessing lack of water is not the cause.

[cary lichtenstein]

Jay:

Welcome to the Treehouse. I am a former Chicagoian, now live the down the street from Frenchman's Creek, Admirals Cove.

The Ritz across the street has water on 11 holes
Admirals Cove has water on 13 holes

So you are correct about the water and the homeowners/developer's concept of homes with water views.

Funny, but the folks down here like the water on the golf course, while the folks in Chicago don't. I could never figure that out.

[Michael Christensen]

at SLoaf....for some reason the most expensive lots were on the driving range...at least during the first release....tink, tink, tink in the AM did not excite me!

[JimFatsi]

Nice to see Sugarloaf (whats with the Mountain its FLA) layout, not a lot of water, and it seems by this rendering that homesites are "out of play".  Has anyone seen property yet.  I heard they will have a soft opening to coincide with the PGA show? I believe its Coore/Crenshaws first FLA design. But what is a mountain doing in FLA, even though its only a name, with Coore/Crenshaw involved it should be special.

This property is under the Hampton Golf Club umbrella, anyone play the courses or familiar with this group.

[JWinick]

Since the primary objective is selling real estate, there's no question that water sells.   Some of these exclusive communities have not been hurt by the real estate down cycle, and I don't know of one high-end community that doesn't feature water on the majority of the holes.

Regarding pace of play and water, I'm not sure water speeds up play!  I've been behind many golfers who spend more time fishing for golf balls than playing golf!

The complaint from most golfers with Florida golf is when the homes are too close to the golf course.  I've heard alot of complaints regarding St. Andrews, a 36-hole facility with water on every hole and huge homes on top of every hole.  

[Peter Nomm]

Not having ever been involved with any courses developed in FL, would the amount of water hazards created have anything to do with moving earth to create the rest of the course?  For example, do they strip some of the topsoil from one area (thus creating a low which becomes a water hazard) to plate the fairways and tees?

Thanks

[Tom Roewer]

Peter: Several things happen.  many places in Florida rely on an AQUA RANGE.  First you get fill for the course and/or lots, 2nd you have a water storage area for your pump pond, and 3rd you have a practice facility! 3 bangs for your buck.  Also since it's fairly flat in most of florida, Hydrolics must be good to move water off the course and into these ponds which are usually all connected.

Hampton Golf was started by MG Orender (past PGA President)to oversee construction and management of all LANDMAR course - they include  North Hampton, South Hampton,Osprey Cove, Grand Haven, The Grand Club (all from St. Marys GA. to Palm Coast FL)  Southern Dunes (Brooksville) and River Hall ( Ft. Meyers) archies in order are - Mccumber, Palmer, McCumber, Nicklaus, 2 Palmer 1 Player,  PeteDye, and D. Love III

[Jason Connor]

My solution: Breed meaner alligators.

If alligators were more ferocious, then people wouldn't want to live on the water holes.  So economics dictate fewer holes with water.

Then we wouldn't have these courses with water everywhere.  To me the recovery shot is the most fun in golf (God knows I get to try to hit plenty of them).  And unfortunately water takes away so many chances for great recoveries.

[Tom_Doak]

The reason for there being so much water on courses in Florida is not just about real estate.  It's a practical concern.  In many areas the water table is only about 2-3 feet below ground level, so if you dig a hole -- any hole -- you're going to create a water hazard in the process.

So, if you need to move some dirt to make the course interesting -- and you have to move some dirt on most of those courses just to make them drain properly -- you get water hazards as a by product.

Sugarloaf Mountain won't have many (maybe any) water hazards, because it sits on a hilltop.

[Steve_Lovett]

The area where Sugarloaf Mountain is located is an anomoly within Florida.  I haven't been to the site yet, but based upon my familiarity with the area it wouldn't surprise me if there is 60-100' of elevation change on the property.

Along with the issues of flat land and high water table, Florida also has very strict stormwater management laws for any sort of development which requires all runoff to be detained, treated, and released.  In most cases this is done through the creation of lakes.  Depending on where you are in the state and the nature of the site and development, as much as 15-20% of developed property (golf/real estate) may be required as lakes to meet these requirements.

[Jeff_Brauer]

As Tom and Kelly note, the lakes are for detention and drainage concerns, but happen to sell real estate.

On any flat ground, and esp. so close to the water table, its important to create drainage outlets.  At 2% minimum surface drainage pitch, dry land can't run very far without needing some place to catch it, maybe 200-300 feet.  Most fw need drainage outlets along their entire length, and a "flat" pond provides it, explaining why so many fw there have lateral water hazards along most holes.

There is an old bridge engineering rule of thumb - the cost of the spans should equal the cost of the piers for a cost effective design.  In draining flat golf sites, the cost of the drain pipe should about equal the cost of the earthmoving to achieve same.  You can do it with mostly fill, but a combo of both makes more sense in most cases.

In Florida, those lakes are probably all tied together at one level with deep pipes, just above sea level.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Water on many golf courses in Florida serves as a visual and mental hazard, and not so much as a physical hazard.

To the temporary visitor, the site of the water is overwhelming and strikes fear into their hearts.  To the golfer who's there most of the time, it's mostly out of play and doesn't have the same effect.

In addition, the temporary visitor, usually from the north, hasn't played golf in months, thus their game is rusty, whereas those who are there a good amount of time have their games well in hand.

That combination makes water very difficult to the temporary visitor and not such a big deal to those who reside there most of the season.

South Eastern Florida has a highly integrated water management program and golf courses are an integral part of it.  Water intake and outtake are regulated by the governing agencies.

[John Kirk]

A quick perusal of a Florida map shows the state has lots of lakes.  Not exactly pertinent, but another data point in the discussion.

[S. Huffstutler]

Building a golf course here requires dirt (soil). Dirt comes from ponds or lakes that are dug on site. The lakes provide dirt for shaping golf holes, ponds for irrigation and storm water retention. Having dirt trucked in is a very expensive proposition, so we dig a lake and build a golf course around it. It works very well and many, many people enjoy their Florida golf vacations even though golf snobs disapprove.
We don't have much in the way of elevation changes, but we have nice weather and can play golf in the middle of the nastiest NE weather imaginable, so take it for what it is and try to have a good time. There are actually some very nice golf courses here even though you wouldn't know it by spending a lot of time on this website.

Regards,

Steve
Naples, Fl

[tlavin]

 There are actually some very nice golf courses here even though you wouldn't know it by spending a lot of time on this website.

Regards,

Steve
Naples, Fl

Ouch.  I just got back from Orlando, where I played one of my favorite Florida courses, the Country Club of Orlando.  I guess you're right, Florida courses do get beat up a little bit on this site, but I've played a lot of great golf in the Sunshine State.  In Orlando, I also like Lake Nona, Bay Hill and Interlachen.  In Naples, I've heard nothing but good things about Calusa Pines and Old Collier.  I happen to think Doral is a great place to play in Miami and I enjoy Jupiter Hills and Pinetree a little further up the coast.  Even further up is one of the best courses in America, the TPC Sawgrass.

I haven't played some of the real top courses, like Seminole and Indian Creek, Loblolly, Old Memorial and others, but I think a person would have to be pretty close-minded to say that there aren't a bunch of good-to-great courses in Florida.

Just stay away from the alligators!

[JWinick]

So, it appears that water is inevitable on a Florida golf course.  Does that explain why Florida golf is not viewed very favorably on this website despite the fact that the state of Florida has more golf courses than any other state?   Perhaps, we're all jealous of anyone who can play golf 365 days a year!

While this might be worthy of another subject, i'd much prefer Florida golf over other warm weather destinations, such as desert golf.  You have the same limitations on recovery shots in the desert waste areas as you do with water.  Most of us would rather look at water than rocks and pebbles.  

[Jerry Kluger]

I am a bit surprised that Pat didn't mention Boca Rio and Pine Tree - two of the best in that area and water is not a prominent feature .

[Steve_Lovett]

Much of the critique of Florida golf is about the sameness of it all.  There is limited variety in topography and geography - and water is more prevalent in Florida for all of the reasons mentioned.

Matt Ward has expressed his opinion on it extensively in the past.

There is some variety in Florida - the panhandle, northeast Florida, central Florida, and south Florida all are different - but not vastly so.  One of the reasons so many are excited about Sugarloaf Mountain is that it is on terrain which is very unusual for Florida, and because of that it's likely to be a very atypical course in the state.  The fact that it will be the only C&C course in the state makes it's interest and appeal that much greater.

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