[JC Urbina]

The reason Western Gailes has my fancy is because it was my first course in Links land that I felt I had to explore more then I had to just play.  I had played Troon twice the day before and thought the first few holes were non discript but later on in the round it became more interesting.  Not enough to go back and play the third time.  

Western Gailes is truly my basis for why I shy away from elevated tees and courses so laid out in front of you it is boring.  Gailes was different then Troon and it proved to me that the idea of uncertainty is truly why I  like playing golf.

Many returns to Scotland and Ireland have proved to me that Western Gailes was my base line and that course helped me stray away from the ideas of modern golf design.

[Mark_F]

The part that makes it great for a championship is the part that puts me off the most. I find Troon to be more about execution than I do about having the choice to try different shots or play for particular positions.

Ian,

Reading one of the articles on your blog about the 'three-act play' at Merion, do you think something similiar could have happened at Troon?

ie. the first and last third a stern execution-based style, and a middle third amongst the more interesting land with the quirk and whimsy, requiring imagination and finesse and variety, or would such be unbalanced?

[Tom_Doak]

Ian and Jim:

I am going to challenge you to make your own Western Gailes thread and tell me what's so interesting about it.  I could only remember two holes of it before I revisited last spring, and I can still only remember two holes now.

Tim:

I like your description of Royal Troon ... it doesn't try too hard.  I am starting to tire of people who think all 18 holes have to be memorable and exciting.  Most pieces of property just aren't like that, and most architects try too hard to fix them because every course has to be their most special one yet.  I'll get to the individual holes tonight; duty calls.

[hhuffines]

Tom,

Count me in as a supporter of Royal Troon!  While there are some less memorable holes there I really enjoyed #s 6,7,8 and was punished several times on the back, particularly on #11.

We played in a steady cross wind off the beach and it made the early holes challenging and fun.  I also enjoyed the finish as I birdied #17 and loved the walk up #18 after seeing it on TV for so long.

Our caddies were great guys and we saw no evidence of snobbery at all.

[Ian Andrew]

Mark,

It sort of does now.

The first few holes are a clear opportunity to score particularly since the prevailing wind is straight behind on most days. The middle is where the ground becomes quite undulating and a lot of long difficult holes occur through this section. The final turn after the 12th is all straight into what is normally a pretty stiff breeze where you have to grind out the finish over much less undulating land. So I think you have another three act play – the difference is that Merion doesn’t have a single average hole – whereas Troon has many that don’t stand out from anything at Western Gailles (sorry Tom I could not resist ).

I guess the best way to describe the course is very good – a great championship test – but not the fountain of architectural inspiration for me.


Tom,

Western Gailles - I will try my best to explain what I like in the next few days

[Tom Huckaby]

It's simply untrue that Royal Troon has not been discussed in here... in fact we've battled over it many times.  Evan Fleisher very much loves the course, and I poo-poohed it to him rather vehemently, with much of the same criticisms levelled in this thread.  Sorry, Tom.  You're gonna have to go for a lot less famous courses to find one not discussed in here!

Funny thing is, after playing it again a few years ago - paying the huge freight to play both courses with the lunch in between - I gained a lot more love for it.  It wasn't because of the "architecture" (whatever the hell that means), it was much more because the experience of playing was pretty darn fun.  There is only one real Postage Stamp in this world, and the stretch of holes from 6-12 are all pretty damn great.  Sure it is way overpriced... without a doubt.  But hell, damn near everything in Scotland is these days, particularly rota courses.

So Ed, don't dismiss it so quickly.  One does only live once, there is only one Postage Stamp.... and the lunch is pretty good and if you catch them on a good day, the people there are pretty darn friendly.

Don't ask me about bad days, though.


 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Troon is certainly NO minger, there are plently of great holes by consensus the 6-12 stretch. just a less than perfect start and finish.

[Tom_Doak]

Okay, my take:

The first five holes are decidedly unmemorable, but nevertheless quite tricky.  I remember that for the Open in 1982, when it was hard as a rock and these holes were playing downwind, none of the pros could do much with them -- many were driving it within 50 yards of each of the first three greens, yet were totally unable to get their second shots close to the hole from there.  I'm not saying these holes are great architecture, but they hold up well.

I've already said I think 6-7-8 are excellent holes, and nobody disagrees much there.

I'm surprised so many people keep talking about the stretch from 6 through 12, because I really think the loop at the far end is overrated.  Yes, these holes do play crosswind, and you have to deal with that -- that's really why the course feels like a 3-act play, because it goes downwind, crosswind, and then into the wind.  But I think 10 and 11 are just hard more than interesting.  Can anybody tell me where you should try to go on #11, other than staying out of the gorse and hitting it as far as you can?

The other thing that bothered me about the "6 to 12" story is that it ends before 13 and 15, which are two of the best holes on the course to me.  Both of them have extremely rugged fairways, and you either have to place the drive with precision or deal with a strange stance for a very long second shot.  Because there aren't many fairway bunkers (none on 13 at all) I suspect people can't get a clear picture of these holes in mind, and they tend to dismiss them ... but I think they are the essence of links golf.

Sixteen is quite interesting because of where the burn crosses it, and seventeen is a terrific long-iron par-3.

In short, while I think all championship courses are somewhat overrated, I think Royal Troon is made to suffer for all their sins.  It doesn't have the kind of holes anyone would describe as "cool architecture", so it gets no love; but it does present a lot of cool golf.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Does a hole have to be "cool architecture" to be great?  Isn't that part of the problem with golf courses these days - the "can you top this" factor has the cost of many courses spiraling out of control.  

I have said it above as have a few others, RT is just good old solid links golf.  It might not wow you but it is sure fun and challenging to play especially when there is a wee bit of wind!
Mark

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

No, a course does not have to have "cool architecture" to be good, and particularly not on every hole; it just has to have some "cool golf."  That's why I chose to post this thread in the first place.

I'm not sure the trend to overcook designs is necessarily a question of budget, though ... adding a few too many bunkers really doesn't cost much, and that's why everybody does it.

[wsmorrison]

My hotel room overlooked the first and eighteenth fairways of Royal Troon and I was very excited to play the next morning with my oldest son.  I admit I was a bit unnerved about how narrow the space available for the first couple of side-by-side holes seemed to be (1/18, 2/17 and 3/16).

I agree, the first was completely uninspiring.  The second might have held more interest if the ground were firm and we played with a strong wind, then the cross bunkers might have come into play a bit more.  As it was soft and into the wind, it didn't hold much interest.  Which way does the wind typically blow in the summer; with the wind?  The third and fourth holes were OK, especially the fourth green with its two levels.  I liked the par 3 5th hole and it would be more of a test with the wind.  Six as I recall was long and not so very interesting.  I really liked the dogleg seventh and of course the eighth exceeded my high expectations.  Nine was a pretty good hole, but I must say, the atmosphere of this and ten left me a bit bewildered.  It just didn't seem like an interesting setting.  I find it hard to put into words.  I enjoyed the interrupted fairway on 10 but can't remember much about 11 through 13 except the raised green on 12.  Tom mentions 13 being one of his favorites on the course bothers me only because I can't remember the hole and I'm usually pretty good about that.  I must have missed something.  I do know my son was dragging at that point and it was a struggle to see him home.  Fourteen was a pretty good par 3 and I did like the approach into fifteen.  I don't remember much about sixteen.  The seventeenth was a nice hole with the wind and an opening to land the ball short and run it onto the green.  I liked the finishing hole and think greens so close to OB and the clubhouse give me fits, like the 18th at Merion West and other courses.  All and all, a very solid golf course but one that I don't long to return to.

Western Gailes was almost an unexpected delight.  I had heard wonderful tales about the course and Jim Finegan urged me to visit.  The members were especially nice to my son and I and had us in for lunch, which I think was bending the rules for such a young lad as David was at the time.  We went around by ourselves and were constantly wondering where the next hole was and once we found it where the hole was.  What fun!  It was both challenging and interesting golf.  I look forward to returning.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I find Troon to be if anything slightly underated. I absolutely love the holes Tom mentioned. 7 has always touched me as a great hole and very special. 8 aka Postage Stamp belongs in the great hole and copied hole club. Yes the opening holes are average as is 18 to me. This is a big time golf course along with Turnberry making a 1 2 punch of memorable holes as good as any in Scotland. However, the attitude of the club and current guest green fee has finally run off a guy who never asked what a round of golf or for that matter a logo golf shirt costs. It was my last round of golf before the fateful flight home also known now as Newfoundland on 9/11.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Wayne the old Western Gailles lockerroom was one of the greats.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Wayne- 13 is a great hole, I took some photographs while I was there of the fairway movements, the green complex which may be bunkerless im not sure appears half hidden with some clever mounding from the left fairway side, from the right things are clearer. From the high tee its a tough drive.
While I was there no planes flew over, but I guess if they were pretty constant that would be annoying.

[Steve Okula]

I played RT some years ago, and memory fades, but contrary to everyone else, I thought the first hole was inspiring indeed.

Maybe not for strategic architecture, strictly speaking, but the atmosphere was thrilling, standing in the fairway, waiting to hit the approach, and the sun is shining through a stiff breeze, the white caps on the sea all the way to the lighthouse, and it made foe one of my most memorable golfing moments ever.

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