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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« on: December 29, 2007, 05:09:25 PM »
I've started this thread in response to Matt's, because I didn't want my reply to be lost in the middle of that thread.

My contention is that the resistance to building shorter courses is not about reasoning at all, but about human nature.  You have to understand a bit about the type of person that develops a golf course.  Generally, they fall into two categories:

1.  The lifelong golfer who loves the game and wants to develop a good course out of love for the sport, and

2.  The housing developer who may or may not care about golf at all, other than as a means to increase the value of real estate.

The second guy is easy to explain.  He doesn't understand golf, so he hires a "golf guy" to help him with that part of the business, and "golf guys" are paid to spout conventional wisdom.

The first guy is a bit tougher to understand, but not much.  He's getting into a business which he knows little about, and he's heard it is easy to lose a lot of money at developing a golf course as a hobby, so he's wary from the outset.  In addition, he is often a pretty good player (but not good enough to play professionally), who looks up to the guys who were better players than himself -- usually because they were LONGER HITTERS than the frustrated golfer turned successful businessmen.  So that developer thinks that length equals respect.

Or perhaps it is as my wife suggests, that 100% of golf developers are men, and a very high percentage of men are overly concerned about length for reasons having nothing to do with golf.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2007, 05:13:09 PM »
What about

3. Golfers hit the ball a long way

That has to be factorred in somewhere, doesnt it?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 05:14:23 PM »
Or perhaps it is as my wife suggests, that 100% of golf developers are men, and a very high percentage of men are overly concerned about length for reasons having nothing to do with golf.

She never mentions anything like that to me..... :P

I think you need to add Developer Man #3: Wallet and Ego are similarly large....think Trump.....

I agree that it is in large part a human element that keeps us from going shorter. It's a bit like giving up the high powered sedan for the more practical mini-van.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 05:19:24 PM »

She never mentions anything like that to me..... :P

I think you need to add Developer Man #3: Wallet and Ego are similarly large....think Trump.....

I agree that it is in large part a human element that keeps us from going shorter. It's a bit like giving up the high powered sedan for the more practical mini-van.


Joe,

I once knew a very experienced, worldly woman who said something like, "the bigger the truck, or the faster the car, the...um...smaller the man".

I don't think she was talking character.   ;)  
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 05:20:14 PM by MPCirba »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 05:26:25 PM »

She never mentions anything like that to me..... :P

I think you need to add Developer Man #3: Wallet and Ego are similarly large....think Trump.....

I agree that it is in large part a human element that keeps us from going shorter. It's a bit like giving up the high powered sedan for the more practical mini-van.


Joe,

I once knew a very experienced, worldly woman who said something like, "the bigger the truck, or the faster the car, the...um...smaller the man".

I don't think she was talking character.   ;)  

Mike,

FWIW, I drive a 4 cylinder VW......... :o

Which, in her particular example, is nothing but a reverse smoke screen...... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 05:37:42 PM »
Tom,

Some fellows were discussing this today.

Physics has a lot to do with it.
That and the fact that the spectrum has been broadened.

When 14 year olds are hitting it longer than Nicklaus in his prime, designing a golf course to serve all levels of golfers can be a difficult mission.

There seems to be a "Red Badge of Courage" known as the back or "Tiger" tees, without which, a course may not be considered as a meaningful challenge for the better player (Pro).

Whether we like it or not, length remains an inherent element, if not the critical element, in presenting a challenge.  Thus, a long course must be part of the architectural equation when designing courses for today's golfers.

I can remember when courses at 6.700 presented a meaningful challenge to the best golfers in the world.  Then it went to 7,000.  Today it's probably closer to 7,500.  Who knows what it will be in the future ?  But, whatever it will be, will have to be built in order to preserve that challenge for the best players.

Then, there's another perspective.

How can you as an architect design features that will integrate with everyone's game, physical and mental, if you don't differentiate play vis a vis different sets of tees ?

Bunker placement would be a dilema if there were but one set of tees, unless, you littered the land with bunkers.

The problem with building an abundance of bunkers is that it would present an overwhelming challenge to players with less ability.  It wouldn't be fun for them, it would be tortuous, certainly not the kind of course they'd seek for repeat play.

So clearly, a critical segment of the golf market would reject your design as being too penal, and survival of your creation would be in doubt.

The short answer to your question is:

Because the ruling bodies of golf allowed the distance issue to get out of control.

What was 6,700 in 1960 is equivalent to 7,500 today, and if you don't build golf courses for "today's" golfers, how would your product be received ?

The term, "pitch & putt" was always used as a derogatory phrase when describing a short course.  In some ways it referenced a one dimensional course that offered little in the way of a challenge for the better player, amateur and/or pro.

"pitch & putt" courses used to be about 6,200-6,400 yards.

Today, it's probably 6,600 to 6,800 yards, so, in order to avoid that label in the minds of the retail golfer, you have to add distance, unless you've got an unusual golf course in an unusual environment, and/or lots of wind.

If you're not at 7,000+, in the golf world's eyes, you're not presenting a meaningful challenge.

It's not ego, it's not gender, it's simple physics.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 05:40:40 PM »
Is it possible that golf might be following the old “boiled frog” analogy.  Some of you may have heard it, but for those who have not, it goes like this.  If you put a frog into a pot of water and start to turn up the heat, it will slowly cook to death.  It doesn’t realize there is a problem.  On the other hand, if you toss a frog into a pot of boiling water it will quickly jump out and save itself as the problem is obvious.  In the course length situation, people don’t seem to recognize there is a real problem and therefore they don’t think they can or need to do anything about it.  For those who think I am exaggerating, take your family out to play a nice course one weekend and see the dent it puts in your wallet.  It is easy to spend $500 or more for a foursome for just one round.  The cost of the game is spiraling out of control and course length has a lot to do with it.  Every extra yard is more land and more maintenance.  

In some ways, didn't we have a similar situation taking place not long ago regarding “restoration” work.  Few architects seemed to really care about the past and just did their own thing when changing/modifying existing golf courses (the evidence is everywhere).  Then along came some architects who said, you know what, this isn’t right and there is an opportunity here to change this direction through education and taking a stand.  Thank goodness they did or every old course would look like Bay Hill.

Maybe the same thing needs to happen with the course length issue.  I believe a few will put their egos aside and try to educate and do the right thing.  Time will tell who those individuals are.

Just my opinion!
Mark


« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 05:41:51 PM by Mark_Fine »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 05:41:26 PM »
If the thread title is a reality, I think more architects need to learn how to say no, thank you!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 05:46:58 PM »
Patrick,

You've stated the conventional wisdom but I don't think you've stated whether you think architects should feel compelled to follow it.

The fact is, to create a course that playes like 6500 yards did in 1930 it would need to be about 8200 yards long.

I think we did a study a few weeks back that indicated an 800 yard difference in "real yardage" between 1980 and today.

Personally, I think conventional wisdom is going to really put a crimp in the growth of the game in coming decades, and this fascination with length is exactly counter to where the game needs to be going.

One of the interesting things that I've (re)learned lately with our study of Cobbs Creek is just how difficult 6200 yards of golf can be by creatively utilizing a good piece of terrain on 100 acres!!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 05:48:51 PM by MPCirba »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2007, 06:10:23 PM »
I think one thing that has happened over the last 20 years is that while some people hit it further, a lot DO NOT seem to have benifited. 20 years ago the club champ hit it say 50 yards past a 50 year old. Today its not unusual to see people 100 yards ahead. Recently I played with an ex tour player and he was 100 yards ahead of me, 20 years ago I was one of the longest in the club. Holes that were a drive and 7 iron for him, were 2 woods for me.
100 yards difference from the tee between two players makes architecture difficult, you cant always move tees back and you cant always fit bunkers in to accomadate both and even on new designs its not easy.
Two things could help, allow men to play off different tees (like the ladies), or limit the ball for certain categories ( I suppose it has to be by handicap) so as the intended hazards come into play as designed.
Courses with championship desire need to be around 7500 yards, for normal mortals I think 6000-6500 is the popular number.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Kavanaugh

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2007, 06:54:38 PM »
Maybe some of us enjoy hitting 3, 4 and 5 irons.

Sandy Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2007, 06:56:44 PM »
What hole on the PGA tour does really any of the top players have to hit a solid drive and a long iron for their second ? The answer is maybe 12 at Torrey . The long par 4 is gone in todays game and that's a shame . The ball has gotten way out of hand.
I can't wait to see some one like Mr Doak build a 8700 yard course and play a US Open on it . I will bring the kleenex for the players.
Firm greens, firmer fairways.

John Moore II

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2007, 07:16:33 PM »
In the length discussions I have seen on here, I have failed to see anyone mention the greens on a golf course. For anyone that has played Pinehurst #2, would that golf course test even a great golfer even at 6500 yards with the greens being as fast and hard as they can be? The answer is yes. Short golf courses with really sloping greens are far harder to me than a long golf course with somewhat flat greens. Greens with huge run-off areas and fast firm surfaces and fringes are very hard to play. If you are interested in something like that, that short courses can be great. However, very few places want that, so you come back to the only way to keep scores within range of par is length.
--Just a question, Pine Valley is about 6600 yards. If a US Open was held there, does anyone really believe the score would be way under par??

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2007, 07:26:42 PM »
--Just a question, Pine Valley is about 6600 yards. If a US Open was held there, does anyone really believe the score would be way under par??

John, PV is now just a tick under 7000 yards.  I will be curious to hear what others might say would be a score at PV under US Open conditions.  I suspect par would be real safe.  
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

John Moore II

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2007, 07:45:47 PM »
I stand corrected about Pine Valley, not sure where my number came from. However, I looked something up, the 2004 US Open was played at less than 7000 yards, not much less, but less, and the winning score was -4, certainly not mind blowing.
The general idea I was trying to get out was that given conditions seen at PV and Cypress Point, length is not required to keep the scores low.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 07:57:14 PM »
It is not about keeping scores low.  It is about playing a friend for money and you both hitting long irons into greens instead of wedges.  It is a skill worth betting on and fun to boot.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 08:42:33 PM »
John:

I like to hit long irons as much as you do -- a handful of times per round.  I can provide that in a course that's a lot less than 7000 yards.  At Crystal Downs I will have to hit a long iron approach most of the time at holes 1, 2, 12, and 13; long iron tee shots to the par-3's at 3 and 11 and sometimes 9 also; a long iron second shot at the par-5 number 8; and long iron tee shots on short par-4's at 5 and 17.  And Crystal Downs is barely over 6500 yards from all the way back.

The problem is all the courses that insist on four 570-yard par fives and every par-4 being over 400.  Those are the ones that get up above 7000.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2007, 09:47:45 PM »
Tom,

Is it easier to design a better course that is shorter?

I come from Sydney, Australia. Most courses in Sydney are cramped for room due to high real estate prices. It’s far too costly for a club to buy a bit more land or for a developer to build a few less houses, therefore, most of the courses have smaller parcels of land then they need. Hence, there are very few quality courses in a city of 4½ million.

Although I am a member of a local Sydney course, I choose to drive 2 hours to Newcastle GC as my home course. When I invite friends to Newcastle, they regularly comment on the space. Not so much about the width of fairways, but more about the large parcel of land the course has as a whole. I get the same feeling with courses like St Andrew’s Beach.

So, back to my question: If you have a parcel of land where you could JUST stretch a course out to 7000y+, would you, generally speaking, find it easier to design a quality course if you gave yourself a little more room within that parcel of land & kept the course at around 6600y.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2007, 09:55:46 PM »
John:

I like to hit long irons as much as you do -- a handful of times per round.  I can provide that in a course that's a lot less than 7000 yards.  At Crystal Downs I will have to hit a long iron approach most of the time at holes 1, 2, 12, and 13; long iron tee shots to the par-3's at 3 and 11 and sometimes 9 also; a long iron second shot at the par-5 number 8; and long iron tee shots on short par-4's at 5 and 17.  And Crystal Downs is barely over 6500 yards from all the way back.

The problem is all the courses that insist on four 570-yard par fives and every par-4 being over 400.  Those are the ones that get up above 7000.

I like par fours with teeing options that range from 290 yds to 470 yds.  In other words a 7300 yd course that you pick and choose to the yardage you desire.  Not a big fan, considering that I play in every conceivable weather condition, of being pigeon holed into any given yardage.  Any golfer of reasonable intelligence can pick a set of tees for any given day and any given money game better than the best architect or super can do.  With that being said a course must start out being long enough to be able to be cut back by tee selection.  My typical choice is 6700 yds, but that is me, and why should what I like determine what everyone else must play.

Peter Pallotta

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2007, 11:11:22 PM »
Why do courses HAVE TO be long, Tom?

Here's a story: an old Hollywood producer made a picture in the 1970s for $1 million, when the average cost was about $5 million. The movie turned out well, and a reporter asked him why more $1 million pictures weren't being made. The old producer answered: "Because you can't steal a million dollars from a million dollar picture".  

I'm not suggesting that anyone related to golf course architecture is stealing anything. I'm just opining that if one finds themselves in a "HAVE TO" situation, one's already lost the battle, 'cause those situations are always about the money.

Peter

Doug Ralston

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2007, 11:39:59 PM »
The other option is obviously to make an entirely 'target golf' course. Then length no longer plays a big part. Take the driver our of hands and FORCE them to use their 5-wood, limit their options to hitting to certain survival areas, and you can make a course on surprisingly little property.

There are some people who like that kind of course [witness Tobacco Road etc]. Most prefer to WHACK(!!) it!! *flex*

Doug

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2007, 11:58:27 PM »
Is Apache Stronghold considered a "new" course?  Played the "Warrior" tees today (just over 7000 yards), and just looking back at the back tees was a tad scary.  7500 yards and a slope of 146. I know it's about 3500 feet and Arizona, but wow. . .

As for long irons, I hope you mean hybrids :D

Sandy Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 12:18:49 AM »
No one has answered my question . In todays game the long par four has gone away . Yes they can make greens hard and fast and par might be a very good number for the best players still . Yes par might be the number at PV if they had a Open , but I can say the course would not play any thing like Crump thought it would . For Tiger #13 would be 3 wood 8 iron at most .
Firm greens, firmer fairways.

Jim Nugent

Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2007, 02:49:37 AM »
No one has answered my question . In todays game the long par four has gone away . Yes they can make greens hard and fast and par might be a very good number for the best players still . Yes par might be the number at PV if they had a Open , but I can say the course would not play any thing like Crump thought it would . For Tiger #13 would be 3 wood 8 iron at most .

Probably almost entirely true.  One possible exception is 17 at Olympic Lake.  When they play it as a par 4, under U.S. Open conditions, don't the pro's hit long irons into the green?  (And often from the rough.)  

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why New Courses Have to Be Long
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2007, 09:07:37 AM »
Why do we always keep talking about the pros?  I still stand by what I said in that other thread - 99% of all golfers have all they can handle on good courses that are 6500 yards or less.  

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