[Kalen Braley]

I was tooling around with Google Earth, and was playing with the measurement tool to see how long the walk is on various courses.  Some I've played, others I haven't.  

As I was doing these, I noticed how a fair amount of courses were almost exactly 4.5 miles to walk, (clubhouse to course back to clubhouse).  I'm not sure how accurate the tool is, but at least the differential ratios from course to course should be good.  Additionally the actual walk of the course would probably be longer due to "right, left" military style golf, that is unless you are a "Fred Funk"-ish straight hitter.  Here is a list of the courses I took a look at in order of shortest to longest:

1)  Indian Canyon in Spokane WA -  4.2 miles - This was the shortest, but don't let the yardage fool you as you must walk up and down the canyon 4 times during the round.  A golden age course.

2)  Cypress Point - 4.3 miles - What a routing.  Hard to really add anything here other than if you haven't read Geoff's book on the course, then beg, borrow, or steal to get a copy.

3)  NGLA - 4.4 miles - A great use of the land in TOC style.

4,5) ANGC & Shinnecock Hills - 4.6 miles - So far all these courses are pre-1930's?  Are there any long courses from this era?  Over 5 or even 5.5 miles?

6,7) Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails - 4.7 miles - Right there in the same ballpark as most of these.  Is the 4.5 mile mark a magic number in golf course design or does it just work out this way? Bandon Dunes was slightly longer at 4.8.

And then there are the beasts....Coming in at number

8 )  Circling Raven - Worley, Idaho - 6.4 miles - Wow what a huge jump in mileage. More than 40% longer than the 4.5 mile standard

9)  South Mountain - Draper, Utah - 6.6 miles - Crazy long and mountain cart ball track.  Even Tiger would be insane to try to walk this...but wait...

Rounding out the top 10:

10) The Ranch Club - San Jose, CA - 7.4 miles - Holy cow!!  And once again this is if you played straight down the fairways and didn't lose a ball. This comes in at 65% longer than the other courses.

I know this was a random sampling of courses..but it begs the question: Is this a chicken and egg thing?  Are courses getting longer because we have carts, or did the introduction of carts mean that previously non-doable sites were now doable?  

[Garland Bayley]

IMHO GCAs seem to use two mutually inclusive excuses

The want the best holes
The cart can carry you between holes

C&C of course found 1100? holes for Sand Hills which they whittled down to 18 and didn't make excuses. They did not depend on the cart to carry you between holes, but still the found the best holes.

[Phil McDade]

Kalen:

Oddly, at a time when you'd think land use was more restrictive than in the Golden Era (more land has been developed in metro areas, environmental restrictions more pronounced today, land presumably costs more -- even adjusted for inflation), courses seem to be getting bigger. I notice your three large, modern examples are out West, where presumably more land is available.

I attribute it to cart revenue. It's easy to get lazy about working within the confines of a certain area, because if your course is pushing cart play, there's little incentive to create compact designs.

I'd be interested to see what Wisconsin's Erin Hills measures for length. There has been quite a bit of grumbling about some of its green-to-tee walks, and it's a course that does seem to encourage walking.

[mike_beene]

I am guessing that Stonehouse in Virginia is the longest I have ever seen.By the way,if you would look up my home course Lakewood in Dallas and then add 3 miles there is $10 in it for you because my wife will think I am burning more calories.

[Sam Morrow]

I am guessing that Stonehouse in Virginia is the longest I have ever seen.By the way,if you would look up my home course Lakewood in Dallas and then add 3 miles there is $10 in it for you because my wife will think I am burning more calories.

Lakewood is a little cramped.

[mike_beene]

Sam,I have always thought we should issue helmets for the 8th tee.Maybe the only ranking we get is 2nd most dangerous in the world. No way to beat TOC on that.We cetainly dont waste any land.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,I have always thought we should issue helmets for the 8th tee.Maybe the only ranking we get is 2nd most dangerous in the world. No way to beat TOC on that.We cetainly dont waste any land.

It makes DCC look expansive.

[mike_beene]

If both clubs had just kept a little more land.My shoe shine guy got hit by a ball off 11 tee I guess while he was on Preston waiting for his bus.

[Sam Morrow]

If both clubs had just kept a little more land.My shoe shine guy got hit by a ball off 11 tee I guess while he was on Preston waiting for his bus.

I won't say anything, I have hit that tee shot into Preston, of course even then I was only 14 yards from the center stripe.

[Don Hyslop]

  Don't forget when Highland Links was laid out it was strictly a walking course and remained so until Cooke's renovations in 1995. Its distance of 11 km (6.9 miles) takes you from the seside into the mountains and back. Fortunately the beauty of the walk makes you forget how long it actually is. Can the nearly 500 yd walk from the 12 green to the 13th tee be matched?
http://www.golfti.com/highlandslinks/vh/

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:  I'm  surprised THE RANCH is that short... did you do the walks down all the cart paths?  There are no shortcuts.  Keep in mind also that there is MASSIVE elevation change throughout also - there are very few flat walks...

I still hold this course out as the ultimate challenge for the militant walkers.  If they can walk this course and finish within an hour of me riding, I'd be shocked.  I'd also be shocked if they could honestly call it anything but a horrid chore.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Phil,

Good observation about even though we have more restrictions that courses are longer.  But perhaps its because of all the restrictions that courses are longer to only be placed in "non-sensitive" areas of the parcel.  And last time I looked at Erin Hills, the satellite pics shown were pre-course, but I'll check again.

Tom,

As I said in the original post, all those distances assumes you hit it straight down the middle.  In the case of the ranch I did get the distance by following the cart paths, even thru all the "lombard street" like zig-zagging on several of the holes.  I also noticed that one has to do a lot of the backtracking on 3 of the 4 par 3s on the course.  I guess in a cart its no big huh???

As for walkability, I think this one probably beats South Mountain here in Utah for complete and utter un-walkablilty. But when you throw in Utah summer heat, over 100 degrees, and less oxygen at 4500 feet, then maybe its a wash. As for the ranch, I doubt someone could walk the course and finish within 2 hours of you riding, if they even finished at all.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Gotcha.  What I was wondering about was how you got the golfer from green to tee... that's where it gets REALLY crazy at THE RANCH.  Oh there are some crazy backtracks for sure... and some massive hills to go down and up... even in a cart it's a big deal.  You can't possibly play the course and not notice it.

Funny thing is, as much as I do bag on the course... and I do think it's the worst course built around here that I can recall... my friend and I were calling it to see about tee-times two days ago.  They run specials and our other choices didn't sound so great and hey, masochistic golf can be fun.....

Man I am addicted to this game.

In any case, thanks for this thread - I've always been curious how many miles it would be to walk normal and extreme courses and this is the first I've ever seen it all laid out.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Huck,

Looks like elevation differentials are pretty similar.  Ranch plays between 240 and 640. South Mountain plays between 4680 and 5103.

Phil:

I took another look at Erin Hills and while the pics there are updated, it only shows the holes being roughed in, still not enough for this novice to get a fairly accurate "walking number"

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Works for me.  There are just a couple VERY large drops  -and then rides back up - at THE RANCH, that would make walking these sets of holes extremely problematic.  That is, the elevation change all seems to happen on 3-4 holes.  Then on all the rest, well... there are very few tees close to the previous green.

I don't doubt your Utah course is a contender in this; I'm just saying THE RANCH really needs to be seen to be believed.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Gotcha.  What I was wondering about was how you got the golfer from green to tee... that's where it gets REALLY crazy at THE RANCH.  Oh there are some crazy backtracks for sure... and some massive hills to go down and up... even in a cart it's a big deal.  You can't possibly play the course and not notice it.

Funny thing is, as much as I do bag on the course... and I do think it's the worst course built around here that I can recall... my friend and I were calling it to see about tee-times two days ago.  They run specials and our other choices didn't sound so great and hey, masochistic golf can be fun.....

Man I am addicted to this game.

In any case, thanks for this thread - I've always been curious how many miles it would be to walk normal and extreme courses and this is the first I've ever seen it all laid out.

TH

Tom,

I did follow the cart paths from green to tee, and even from tee to green.  For example I didn't draw a straight line from fairway to green on holes 2 or 3 because you can't walk that line.  For the most part I stayed to the cart paths and tried to make sure the path included a visit to the back tees when backtracking was required.  Either way, 7.4 miles is crazy stuff and then when you consider the land elevations that you must climb up and down it turns into a nutter course.

In light of your last post, I must admit I'm intrigued as well.  Its the rubber-necker syndrome at work here when you get a big pile-up on the freeway.  You know its gonna be nasty, you know at least a few people went away in an ambulance, and you know some cars are mashed beyond recognition, yet you still can't keep yourself from looking...

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Works for me.  There are just a couple VERY large drops  -and then rides back up - at THE RANCH, that would make walking these sets of holes extremely problematic.  That is, the elevation change all seems to happen on 3-4 holes.  Then on all the rest, well... there are very few tees close to the previous green.

I don't doubt your Utah course is a contender in this; I'm just saying THE RANCH really needs to be seen to be believed.

TH

Tom,

When I was getting the elevation measurments, I did notice just how bad it is.  It looks like 18 and the clubhouse sit on top of the hill/ridge and the front 9 drops in to be played on one side of it.  And the back 9 drops in on the other side.  So you are right you have to dip in and climb outta that bad boy twice during the round...yeeehah!!!

And to boot 10 and 11 look really isolated from the rest of the course.  Talk about a bad spot you would hate to have the cart break down!  

[Tom Huckaby]

You have it figured perfectly, Kalen.

The big rides are from 10 green to 11 tee, and then 11 green to 12 tee.  YOWZA!  It was after experiencing these that I began to chuckle about our militant walker friends and how they'd be dying.

 

[Kalen Braley]

IMHO GCAs seem to use two mutually inclusive excuses

The want the best holes
The cart can carry you between holes

C&C of course found 1100? holes for Sand Hills which they whittled down to 18 and didn't make excuses. They did not depend on the cart to carry you between holes, but still the found the best holes.

Garland,

I think you make an excellent point here and this really goes to the heart of what in mind seperates the men from the boys.  They found, from what I've heard, an exceptional routing, that is walkable and takes advantage of the best the propery has to offer.

I don't want to speculate on what would have been otherwise if someone else had done the routing, but would not have been surprised if it was a 6.5 to 7 mile long cart path endurance course.

This in my mind is true architecture, not more, but less!!!

[Kalen Braley]

I am guessing that Stonehouse in Virginia is the longest I have ever seen.By the way,if you would look up my home course Lakewood in Dallas and then add 3 miles there is $10 in it for you because my wife will think I am burning more calories.

Mike,

I did your course and assuming I got the routing right came up with 4.4 miles.....err I mean 7.7 miles.  

Some interesting double greens out there and one that I couldn't figure out how to play to it.  If you look at the aerial, its the green that is just south of the 18th tee.  Perhaps its an alternate 14th green?  But if that was case looks like you would have to hoist it over some trees and the approach in would be completely blind.

[mike_beene]

Kalen,I should have given you a heads up on the routing.The first nine plays along the outside,then cross the road and walk past the 11 green to play 10 and 11,then across the road is the par 3 12.After 15 cross street.17 is the severe dogleg left.The routing makes more sense when you realize that Bendelows 9th ran through the tennis area.Plummer rerouted when that land was sold or taken and the arm where 4 and 5 are was bought.Just south of 18 tee is 10 green.That is a short game practice area south of 11 tee,and another short game area south of 10 tee.8 or 9 of the fairway bunkers were added by Coore-Crenshaw.The routing works better than my ability to describe it.You can see why the snap hook scares me.

[mike_beene]

and Kalen,I am adding $10 to my GCA contribution in your name!

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification on the routing...I suppose that would actually make it longer.  I was correct with the routing all the way up to 9 and then assumed the par 3 was 10, with the double green/practice area 11th as number 18 in my routing.

As has been mentioned earlier, with its tight routing, I'll bet one could come up with an interesting alternate routing or even reverse course of sorts.

As for the $10 going to GCA, I couldn't think of a better use..  

[mike_beene]

Kalen,I have got to get google earth on this computer.It may have been before your time ,but we used to have aerial of the day posts which were some of my favorites.Obviously these took a lot of work.How difficult would it be to throw a few of these you just looked at on this thread?Just wondering?

[Kalen Braley]

Hi Mike,

Its not difficult at all to take some screenshots, post them to photobucket and post them here.  I'll post a few shots of the course this evening when I get home.

Kalen

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