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Tony_Muldoon

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A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« on: December 27, 2007, 01:35:28 PM »
I was flicking through “The Shell International Encyclopaedia of Golf”, Editors Donald Steel and Peter Ryde,  Advisory Editor Herbert Warren Wind”, when I read the following:

“Many knowledgeable golf men consider X to be the best architect the United States has produced.”

So in 1975 who would you think they awarded that honour to?


If there are incorrect guesses I will try and give a flavour of what is written about that architect.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 01:35:41 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tom Huckaby

Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 01:36:59 PM »
Robert Jones Sr.?

Bob Jenkins

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Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2007, 01:37:10 PM »

RTJ

Tom Huckaby

Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2007, 01:37:36 PM »
Great minds, Bob.  I'm just a quicker typist I guess.

 ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2007, 01:39:29 PM »
Just to beat Wayne I am saying William Flynn...

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2007, 01:49:00 PM »
"In the more than 40 years that he has been in business, RTJ has become probably the best-known golf course architect in the world.....has designed or remodelled over 300 courses, and they include some of the most renowned and most controversial in the world.  ...a friendly man with a pleasing personality, is sensitive to criticism, and his designs have won him a good deal of it."

RTJ gets nearly 18" of space including a picture.

However the man in question gets only 8 1/2"  (of typespace!)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2007, 01:52:49 PM »
Sorry Wayne but Flynn doesn't merit an entry of his own.   :o
Let's make GCA grate again!

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2007, 01:59:51 PM »
CB Macdonald?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 02:02:42 PM »
Dye?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

wsmorrison

Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2007, 02:22:05 PM »
"Sorry Wayne but Flynn doesn't merit an entry of his own."

He may merit one, he simply didn't get one.  Tony, if you saw his work, you would come to understand this.

I don't think 1 in 10,000 golfers ever heard of William Flynn in 1975.  In 1975, everyone thought Shinnecock Hills was redesigned by Dick Wilson, that Indian Creek was designed by Red Lawrence and that Kittansett was designed by Frederick Hood.  Until recently, George Bahto thought there were six Macdonald holes still in existence at Shinnecock Hills.  

Flynn's designs of numerous courses were misattributed to others (often Ross) and one course was mistakenly attributed to Flynn.  Several clubs continue to ignore the evidence or lack of evidence and perpetuate inaccuracies.  

The full measure of Flynn's contributions in golf (architectural and agronomic) would not be understood for another 30+ years.  So it comes as no surprise that he would be excluded on any list of great architects in 1975.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 02:35:23 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Phil McDade

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Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 02:34:00 PM »
Wayne:

I've noticed that premise in several threads.

Why do you think that is (presuming the answer is somewhere in the 1,000+ page tome to come...)?

Was Flynn not the kind of promoter of his work that other Golden Age GCA were? Was it a product of poor record-keeping? Was it because his "natural" approach to architecture, perhaps lower-profile than most, led to confusion over attribution? Other reasons?




Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2007, 02:35:57 PM »

"One of the early pilars of golf in the United States, and one ofits most controversial figures...he designed and built several courses of which the best known were NGLA and Mid-Ocean."

11 1/2 inches inc photo.  So it's not CBM "there was no better hater".
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2007, 02:40:02 PM »
I thought it too early for a Dye entry but I was wrong.

"the zest and high creativity he brings to his work.  Many informed critics consider that he is the most successfully experimental of the post war American generation of American architects."


However less than 4" means we have to carry on with the search.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 05:29:55 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Garland Bayley

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Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2007, 02:41:01 PM »
AWT
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2007, 02:46:05 PM »
Tony
I hope you don't mind a question (even if we don't have an answer yet):

The line about RTJ that says he "is sensitive to criticism, and [that] his designs have won him a good deal of it" seems to me like one that writes itself, i.e. once the writer has decided that someone is sensitive to criticism, the bit about getting a lot of it is automatically thrown in, whether it's true or not.

But assuming it is true, my question is "who was doing the criticising in 1975, and what was his work being criticized for?"

Any thoughts?

Peter
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 02:47:10 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2007, 02:47:09 PM »
Perry Maxwell

(Or could they have listed Ross since all his design work was after he settled in the US?)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 02:56:49 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

wsmorrison

Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2007, 02:49:24 PM »
Phil,

I think you hit on a bunch of it.  He has a small portfolio of courses, so the number of courses he has on most of the lists is a significant percentage of his output.  Flynn only had 60 original designs with 8 never constructed.  He was involved in 21 redesigns of varying degrees.  Of this work, 13 courses no longer exist.  

The Depression halted most work.  Flynn began work on only 5 courses after 1931.  He was not a self-promoter.  I've only seen two advertisement that mention his golf architecture business.  These ads were actually promoting the basket golf standard that he patented in 1916 and not golf design.  

Two of his construction employees, there were no other designers but he alone, claimed design credit for two of his best courses, Shinnecock Hills and Indian Creek.  Most of Flynn's courses were very private and nearly all are geographically concentrated in the mid-Atlantic region.  Most of his business records were tossed out by his wife upon his death.  Thankfully she gave the drawings to Wm Gordon and he faithfully kept them stored for us to use today.  

His design style, as you suggest, is overwhelmingly natural looking that it is hard to determine what, if anything, he did on a site.  A budding "architect" mistakenly thought most of the Cascades was natural instead of it being one of the most manufactured sites ever developed for golf.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 02:51:31 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2007, 02:57:14 PM »
AWT


Garland my thoughts too and the reason why I started this thread.  Unless I've completely lost the ability to look up Tillinghast he doesn't merit his own entry.  I'll repeat that.  In this 1975 encyclopedia, which admitedly is biased towards Europeans, there are no individual entries for Flynn or Tillie. :(

It was in 1974 that Frank Hannigan wrote in the USGA Journal that the most interesting stops on the PGA tour that year were several courses by AWT who was then a forgotten figure. (At least words to that effect).  It would be marvelous if someone could post more on that because we can probably date the resurgence of interest in the history of architecture to the publication of that article and the first World Atlas of Golf  in 1976.



So who were they refferring to?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 03:33:37 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2007, 03:04:39 PM »
No no room for Maxwell, P.


Ross has 8 1/2 inches but is treated as an emigree with the first and last paragraphs reffering to Scotland.


"Ross developed the principles and practive which were to make him an outstanding course architect in American golfing history."


Let's make GCA grate again!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2007, 03:08:34 PM »
I figured they were ruling out emigrees.

Thomas comes to mind.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Eric Franzen

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Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2007, 03:10:48 PM »
A long shot... Dick Wilson?

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2007, 03:13:37 PM »
No Thomas.
Let's make GCA grate again!

wsmorrison

Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2007, 03:19:39 PM »
Tommy Birdsong?

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2007, 03:23:54 PM »
A long shot... Dick Wilson?

Sometimes a long shot is worth it.  Congratulations Eric.

As Wayne suggests in his first post the authors give some credit to the wrong man.


"Wilson started in with the well-known Philadelphia firm of Toomey & Flynn...when he was hardly more than a boy.  By 1931 he had become a key figure in the firm and deserved perhaps the bulk of the credit for rebuilding Shinnecock Hills.  ..suddenly burst in to prominence in the middle 1950's.  ...put together an organization of extremely talented people, ..Joe Lee, Bob Von Hagge.  Many of Wilson's admirers believe that Pine Tree, ..the architect's home course, is probably his masterpiece."
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 03:26:18 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A GCA Perspective from 1975.
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2007, 08:19:36 PM »
RTJ Sr. . . .  "a friendly man with a pleasing personality."

Boy, did they ever miss the mark on that one. Sounds like HWW being typically over-polite and knowing all along he was lying through his teeth.

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