[Tom_Doak]

Great holes that have been done to death:  1st, 3rd, old 12th, 15th, 17th, 18th.

Best holes otherwise:

The par-4 sixteenth is a great Z-shaped two-shotter, although the bunkers in the short right corner are easily carried now.

The par-4 tenth with its tilted fallaway green might be the best hole on the course.  The green not only falls away but tilts right-to-left toward a nasty bunker at the back ... if you play short to avoid this, you'll usually need three to get down from the front.  To avoid playing straight toward the bunker on your approach, you have to drive left past the nasty pot bunkers which stick into the fairway on that side.

Most underrated holes:

The par-4 eleventh has the coolest green on the course ... it bleeds into a subtle second tier on the right side, making it the best hole on the course for a running approach shot.

The 300-yard par-4 ninth with its cross-bunker is often dismissed, but lots of good players muck up the lay-up tee shot and leave themselves a difficult par on what they have to be thinking is a birdie hole.  Still, if the course wasn't sacred ground, I might have suggested a 230-yard par-3 played into the right corner of the fairway, above the bunkers that are ledged into the fall-off on the right.

The par-5 thirteenth is the hole that's grown on me the most.  It takes a while to get over the blind second shot, but once you do, it presents a quandary to long hitters -- do they try to get up near the green in two, risking the big bunker off the tee, or lay back twice to leave a full spinning approach to a fallaway green?  It seems like the players in the Travis are always trying to approach it differently, and that's the mark of an interesting hole.

[John Kirk]

I've played Garden City once.  Very hard to know what you're doing the first time around.  "Hit it at that water tower", etc...

I think I remember #10.  That's the one with the fairway bunkers identified by tall flags, and the approach over a ditch to a big green that slopes away with a subtle severity.  That hole was one of the more memorable for a first round, and is quite beautiful.

Garden City is like playing in a museum.  The bunkers are very primitive looking.

[John Kirk]

Oh, and I screwed up #9.  It's hard to see what to do off the tee, and despite my host's good instruction, doubt sets in.  I lay back too far, plunk the approach in the front bunker going for a front pin, and make bogey, while my smiling host makes birdie and continues smiling.

[Matthew Hunt]

From photos I love the way it look unique, most inland American course look the same.

[George_Bahto]

[TEPaul]

TomD:

You forgot perhaps the coolest aspect of all on the 13th that I almost fell pray to the first time there in many years.

And that was when I asked what I needed to hit for my third shot to the green thinking my third shot needed to be played onto the 15th green.

That's sort of like the time I was officiating the qualifying round for the Pa State Mid-Am at Merion West.

I came upon three golfers standing behind #5 green all looking decidedly confused as to where to go next or what to do.

When I asked them what their problem was they told me they'd teed off on the long par 3 14th and they weren't sure what happened.

They'd teed off from the 14th tee to the 5th green which they'd all played a couple of hours before.

When I asked them why they didn't notice that they'd already played the 5th green one of them said it didn't look the same from the 14th tee.

[TEPaul]

GCGC for a first time golfer would be pretty hard to figure out what to do. Is it any wonder Pat Mucci belongs to a course like GCGC? Pat may deny it but he basically never really knows what he's doing.

[Adam Sherer]

There is nothing more embarassing than duffing your drive on the first tee at Garden City (especially as a guest). With the driving range tee in front of you and the Pro Shop's large picture window behind you, it can make for a nervious start to the round.
I think I hit my ball into the driving range.

The fourth hole stands out in my mind for some reason.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Great holes that have been done to death:  1st, 3rd, old 12th, 15th, 17th, 18th.

Best holes otherwise:

The par-4 sixteenth is a great Z-shaped two-shotter, although the bunkers in the short right corner are easily carried now.

Would you consider advocating an ADDITIONAL set that would preserve the original function of the vestigial ones ?

I think it's a palatable idea.[/color]

The par-4 tenth with its tilted fallaway green might be the best hole on the course.  The green not only falls away but tilts right-to-left toward a nasty bunker at the back ... if you play short to avoid this, you'll usually need three to get down from the front.  To avoid playing straight toward the bunker on your approach, you have to drive left past the nasty pot bunkers which stick into the fairway on that side.

I agree, I don't know why it doesn't get more attention.
Perhaps its straight-away configuration undermines its merits to some.  I think its a fabulous hole that the breezes make even better[/color]

Most underrated holes:

The par-4 eleventh has the coolest green on the course ... it bleeds into a subtle second tier on the right side, making it the best hole on the course for a running approach shot.

Tom, the tee shot, with the stepped configuration of the right and the left bunker make it a good driving hole and the fairway has enough movement in it to present many problems.[/color]

The 300-yard par-4 ninth with its cross-bunker is often dismissed, but lots of good players muck up the lay-up tee shot and leave themselves a difficult par on what they have to be thinking is a birdie hole.  

I probably bogey and double bogey that little hole more than any other on the golf course.

The prevailing down wind makes front hole locations especially dicey.

It's a neat hole sandwhiched between some difficult ones.[/color]

Still, if the course wasn't sacred ground, I might have suggested a 230-yard par-3 played into the right corner of the fairway, above the bunkers that are ledged into the fall-off on the right.

YIKES !

A par 72 ?

One of the neat things about GCGC is when the golfer walks off the 9th green only 3 over par and suddenly realizes he's shot 40.

I think that puts additional pressure on those trying to break 80, and then, then the golfer has to face 10, 11 and 12, and suddenly, he's 6 over and panicking.[/color]

The par-5 thirteenth is the hole that's grown on me the most.  It takes a while to get over the blind second shot, but once you do, it presents a quandary to long hitters -- do they try to get up near the green in two, risking the big bunker off the tee, or lay back twice to leave a full spinning approach to a fallaway green?  It seems like the players in the Travis are always trying to approach it differently, and that's the mark of an interesting hole.

The fall-away nature of the green also makes it interesting.

I've seen a number of golfers aim for the 15th green, which sits behind the 13th green.

The hole contains a good deal of diversity and your intended play can be changed with each shot.

When you add in all of the holes, GCGC presents a marvelous combination of challenges.

Nothing Gimmickie, just good GCA and fun.[/color]

[Steve_Lovett]

For those of us that haven't been to Garden City but have an interest in this discussion, would someone please label the holes on the aerial to help give us a frame of reference?

[Patrick_Mucci]

For those of us that haven't been to Garden City but have an interest in this discussion, would someone please label the holes on the aerial to help give us a frame of reference?

Steve,

In the overhead aerial, the hole on the far right is # 9, from there all the incoming holes hug the right border of the property until # 14 turns left toward the right side of the aerial and # 15 turns back toward the left side of the aerial, with # 16, # 17 and # 18 hugging the right side property line.

Hole # 1 starts in the lower right and goes up toward the top, # 2 comes back toward the club house, # 3 goes back up, # 4 goes toward the right, # 5 back toward the left, # 6 continues toward the left and # 7 and # 8 go back toward the right.

Hole # 9 then runs up, along the right border as do all the remaining holes.

Hope that helps.

[grandwazo]

Tom, I believe that you did some work at Garden City at some point in the past.  Would you mind detailing what was involved and how much of your work remains?
Thanks
Jeff

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, #6 and #7 are above #14 and #15 on the aerial view?

It's interesting that all the boundary holes have OB right, opposite of MacDonald's routing of Chicago Golf Club.  Of course CB was a slicer, maybe Emmet was a hooker!  

[David_Madison]

#9 is the most interesting straight, flat 325 yard hole to a big green without serious trouble I've ever played. It's amazing what a few low mounds and tall, wispy grass can do to screw up your visuals and make a nothing flip into a hard shot. Just the opposite of what most current architects would think they needed to do to protect a very short par-4.

I played Garden City once, this past fall in the middle of a trip that included some pretty spectacular high profile courses. While playing the course, I thought it was neat and fun, but at the time it paled in comparison to some of what I'd just seen. But looking back at the end of the trip, and as I reflect back on it with a little more time, Garden City was one of the most unique courses I'd ever played, with visuals and quirky shot requirements that made it to the top of the list for courses that I'd want to really explore with players who know and understand what's there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

The 9th fairway at GCGC slopes off into the lower right rough.

The slope becomes quite pronounced once you reach the right rough.

You hit from a high tee, over a valley/depression that wraps around to the right, paralleling the fairway.

There's a temptation to try to carry the valley/depression and go straight for the green.  Shots that fade or are mishit, or both, find unpleasant pit bunkers and deep rough.

The hole, with its tremendously wide fairway, lulls the golfer into a false sense of security.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat, #6 and #7 are above #14 and #15 on the aerial view?

It's interesting that all the boundary holes have OB right, opposite of MacDonald's routing of Chicago Golf Club.  Of course CB was a slicer, maybe Emmet was a hooker!  

Bill-

  I realize I'm not Pat, but yes; when walking from 5 green to 6 tee, you walk basically behind 15 tee and 14 green.  

I've seen a number of players there, first time out, stand on 6 tee and aim onto 14 fairway.  

My experience there is, I have seen 6 play into the wind more often than not, which means both par fives on the front side are downwind.  6 is a tough par 4; many players are hitting 4 and 5 irons into that green, which is a reasonably tough green to hit.  

Also, I second Pat's statements about the drive on 11.  It's a difficult tee shot, and then, depending on position in the fairway, the approach can be blind.  A drive in the left side of the fairway will provide the golfer with a blind shot over a small berm, whereas, if the golfer will dare to drive to the right, closer to the bunkers up the right, he wil be rewarded with a view of the green.  

Hitting in or close to the bunkers on 11 is a good risk/reward proposition that is not necessarily extreme in being penal.  

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

Looking back, I think I remember the sloping off to the right. Compared to where I play regularly, which is just on the edge of mountain golf, the entire course seemed relatively level although I know there's plenty of ground movement in play, especially with a hot running course, that impacts shots. If I remember correctly, the area I hit to on the center-left was wide and flat, and with a 4-iron to a target that was easy to fall asleep on.

The memorable part of the hole for me was the deceptive nature of the mounds and grasses, and how with a back pin my playing companion hit it 10 yards over while I hit it well short and then 3-putted, both of us with wedges in hand and being told exactly how far it was to the cup.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff S:

I've been consulting at Garden City for a long time, I think it's 18 years now.  In that time, the most significant changes have been to rebuild the green complexes at holes 5 and 14 [both of which had been changed in the 1960's, with bad greens mix that didn't play like the other holes], and to clear a lot of trees in the middle of the course to expand the interior views.

We've also added a few fairway bunkers downrange ... when I first got there, there was no bunkering more than 220 yards off the tee.  We've added a bunker or two to the mix on holes 3, 5, 6, 11, 15, 16 and 17 -- usually the furthest one off the tee.  We've tried our best to mimic the bunkers already there, so it just looks like another bunker in the line.

We've also added a handful of back tees where there was room to do it -- holes 3, 6, 8, and 18.

[George_Bahto]

hope i got the holes numbered right ..... Tom  -   Pat   ??

[Bill_McBride]

Just looking at the aerial, the 18th looks like it could be a true Eden if there is a lot of left to right and back to front slope.  The bunkers are in the right place to be Hill and Strath.  Great finisher, reminiscent of Pasatiempo.  Did MacKenzie ever visit Garden City or the other great Eastern courses?

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Yes, the holes are numbered correctly.

Bill,

The green has the slopes you reference

[grandwazo]

Tom

Thanks.  

I've been fortunate to play the course many times over the years and it is definitely one of my all time favorites.  For me it captures the essence of the game, and although I have rarely posted a really good score I have always enjoyed the matches I've played there.  I always feel that I have to think myself around the course, calculate the risk vs reward from the start through the end of the round and hit a variety of shots, especially when approaching the greens.  When the "hay" is up the course is especially difficult if the driver is not working and all the par 3's present different challenges right through the finishing hole.  The course is always in great shape but I've never seen anyone working on it.  I think it is also amazing that this spot has maintained its sense of place with all that goes on around it.  I think it's maintained it sense of history more than any other course in our area, including the National, Shinnecock and Maidstone.  

You've done a great job in that none of the work you described appears out of character.  The tree clearing in particular stands out much in the same way Shinnecock seemed rejuvenated from such a program.  

Jeff

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

The green has the slopes you reference

Well, what a great finishing hole, you must be looking forward to the Eden all day!  Assuming Emmet wasn't trying to build a template Eden, is there anything behind the green to emulate the Eden bank like the bunkers CBM used?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Yes, there's a deep bunker with steep slopes.

Any shot hit long is faced with a very difficult recovery.

[Bill_McBride]

Well, it does sound very much - and look as well from the aerial at least - like an Eden.  What is the conventional wisdom at Garden City?  Was Devereaux Emmet paying tribute to the Old Course and the Eden Hole (High Hole In)?

The angle of approach is a bit different from the Eden, which is more straight on, where this approach is just a bit off 90 degrees.  That could make the approach even more difficult with the left to right slope.  At least at TOC you are playing directly into the back to front slope!

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