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Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Sleepy Hollow's Template Holes
« on: December 24, 2007, 01:19:03 AM »
Following the discussion on the Short, I am intrigued about the template holes.  We know that the 15th is punchbowl and the 7th is redan.  I suspect that the 3rd was an edan, but the front right bunker really was not that brutal--though that could have been softened at some point.  Is the 2nd the Alps or is the 5th the Alps?  And what other template holes exist?

corey miller

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Re:Sleepy Hollow's Template Holes
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2007, 09:59:00 AM »


Robert

These questions would be best left to George Bahto.  The lower nine has a straight downhill Biarritz.  The present #3 hole has a very very deep bunker complex on the right, in fact even though the bunker depth could be 15-20 feet below the green it is preferable to rolling down the terrain to the Hudson.

Judging by the response to our photo documented restoration of one template hole, I guess we should be "happy" we had few others. ???

Bill Brightly

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Re:Sleepy Hollow's Template Holes
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2007, 11:03:44 AM »
Robert,

The third hole is definitely an Eden, a really good one. I would like to hear George Bahto's comments, but I think Macdoanld reversed the bunkering, with the Strath bunker guarding the front left of the green, and the deep Hill bunker on the right side.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 11:08:22 AM by Bill Brightly »

George_Bahto

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Re:Sleepy Hollow's Template Holes
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2007, 11:30:37 AM »
Robert, this is a tough question to answer at Sleepy Hollow.

The original CBM course was pretty rudimentary, just over 6100 yards with a par of 73  - four par-s and five par-5's (all holes over 440 yards were par-5's).

Four of the original holes were sold off when the course became a 27-hole layout. They were the Macdonald holes, 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 .......... now forget those hole numbers in today world because of reroutings of the course (gee, how many times)

The “inspiration” holes were few (it seems) and because of the lack of early documentation, the CBM holes, other than the par-3's, are difficult to define.


Let’s think of the par 3's and this would only apply to the original Macdonald holes - we cannot think of the other architects’s holes on the course,  answering your question.

The first three architects involved were: Macdonald, one Tom Winton (quite good, who may have done the best work on the course) and then Tillinghast. Beyond that, I don’t think about.

(Remember the original clubhouse was down in the area near 1-green, 2 tee and the lower 6th tee, not the present clubhouse)

*  The present 3rd on the upper course was the Macdonald Eden rendition (originally CBM’s 5th).

*  The present 7th on the upper course was his Redan rendering (originally CBM’s 9th)

*  The present (infamous/famous) 16th was his Short (originally CBM’s 13th)

*  and the Biarritz is now the 7th on the short course (Macdonald’s original 2nd hole).

.... this is hard to follow but I can expand if you’d like in a different response, Robert.

In general, the original Macdonald holes are now:

   3 holes now on the lower course (lower 6 - 7 - 8)
   11 holes on the main course
   4 holes sold off  (CBM 14 - 15 - 16 - 17)

*  The present 15th of course the P Bowl.

*  I suppose the present 4th could be a vague version of an Alps, yes, a rising fairway opening up to the green.



The present 10th is a Tillie hole over a pond, so not relative to your question., as are present holes 1 - 8 - 9 - (again) 10 - 11 - 12 - 18

..........   still with me ??????????   (the chronology of this course gave me a migraine)

........ that leaves the par-4s (less punchbowl) and par-5's (of the original course) and I have absolutely no clue what the identity of their origin may have been.

Strange hole: During this process we found the concept for the present 5th was originally designed to play as par-5 whose green was to be where the 3rd green is now (played from the opposite direction)  ............... hanging at the crest of the ravine. I guess it looked good on paper but not on the ground.  The large drawing hangs in Leahy’s office.

Hope you are not as confused as I am and for the rest of the guys ...... sorry, this is pretty boring stuff.

I like this part of the story:

........ the Macdonald course design of Sleepy Hollow was nearly lost from the very beginning because of Mr. Rockefeller’s insistence that no trees were to be removed. Macdonald was furious (gee), but in the end cooler heads prevailed. “ At a meeting with Cooper Hewitt, Jim Whigham, and I had with William Rockefeller and Frank Vanderlip, I was given a free hand.” The soil was good and once the disagreement about tree removal was ironed out, construction began.

   The initial summer was torrid, prompting Macdonald to remark: “This was a hard task for Raynor in appalling heat.”

(Obviously Charlie was not a hands-on guy)
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

jeffwarne

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Re:Sleepy Hollow's Template Holes
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2007, 05:53:51 PM »
George,
Not boring at all-fascinating in fact.
A bit hard to follow, but i think I've got it.

Were the holes sold off (CBM's 14,15,16,17) above the current #17 on the Upper? If so, man that was an amazing view.
Did CBM original #18 play down what is now #17?

I assume #18 and #1 (were they the work of Tom Winton?) on the current course were added with the acquisition of the new clubhouse. Was the course there or the mansion there first?

I know it's not real fluid, but it would've been fascinating to me to have restored the course to the origins of each architect in the current routing (because that's the only  practical routing now)
i.e. Restore the CBM holes (as I think was done as much as possible)
Restore the Tillinghast holes (8,9,10,11, 12 -(renovate to par 5 in Tillie style)
Restore Winton holes (1?,18 ? + any others)

I certainly see the dilemna you, Hanse and the committee faced  :-\
Was such an idea considered?


#6 on the Lower (CBM's #1) has great green contours-
 #7 on the Lower(CBM's 2nd) may be the best par 3 out there.

Thanks,
Jeff :-\
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 05:56:42 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Sleepy Hollow's Template Holes
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2007, 10:28:13 AM »
George,

I believe Mr. Winton was the architect at the course where I learned how to play... Maple Moor GC in White Plains.  If memory serves me right, he did work on a number of the Westchester County public courses.

What do we know, if anything about Tom Winton?  It sounds like he fared pretty well when his work is compared against some elite company.

George_Bahto

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Re:Sleepy Hollow's Template Holes
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2007, 10:50:57 AM »
Geoffrey: It seems Winton did quite a bit of work in Westchester County and from what little I've seen his work was quite good.

I'd like to find some of Winton's original work. Do you think Maple Moor is fairly original?

The exact work that Tom Winton did at Sleepy is pretty sketchy, at best and it's hard to tell exactly what he did and what Tillie did. We’ve got a lot of aerials but we seem to be missing specific info on the work of the work at Sleepy Hollow of two talents.

Tony Pioppi sent me an aerial of one of his courses not long ago but I really didn't go over it in detail (yet).

JeffW: the present clubhouse was there but it wasn't used as such. I'm pretty sure Winton did 18 and 1. He built this really great Road hole green on the lower course where the driving range is now. The green was itself was where the driving range tees are presently located.

I found a picture of the green in an old NY Times article (I hope they didn't make this up  :P). The picture was taken from up on the hill under the clubhouse.

I'll see if I can post it later today - it's quite cool. It shows the mounds that are over by the tennis courts, by the present 9th of the lower course.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Sleepy Hollow's Template Holes
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2007, 12:47:19 PM »
George,

Without knowing anything about his other courses, I think the Westchester County courses are a good starting point.  As far as I know, they have all been tinkered with a little (including a recent "renovation") but most of the original work/routing remains on them due to financial constraints.

I would probably start with Mohansic given the topography of the site which reminds me a little of SH.  Saxon Woods, which at one point was rumored to be Tillinghast due to the proximnity to WF and QR, would be my next choice.  Sprain Lake and Maple Moor would be 3rd and 4th on my list.

http://www.westchestergov.com/parks/Golf.htm
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 12:50:49 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »