The 16th at Sleepy Hollow

[Mike Golden]

It is everyone's right to either like or dislike this golf hole (I have the feeling that I would enjoy playing it immensely) but can there be any doubt that, with George and Gil involved, that this is a completely faithful restoration of the original design?

I've never met Gil but have played Rustic Canyon enough times to understand his interest in building natural looking greens.  I spent a thoroughtly enjoyable lunch with George at NGLA absorbing his love of MacRaynor designs and have also played (and really enjoyed) Stonebridge, his tribute to classic design.  That is enough to convince me of the authenticity of the work at Sleepy Hollow.

[Matt_Cohn]

Your focus is on the hole, not the backdrop, as you play the hole.

This is the part I wonder about. In a setting like this, shouldn't at least some of the focus be on the backdrop? From the picture, you'd almost think that the architect didn't realize that such a panorama existed behind this green when he designed the hole.

[jeffwarne]

Perhaps he should've put the pin down in the ravine so we wouldn't have all that un natural looking stuff stuff like greens,grass and  bunkers

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The biggest factor that the picture fails to capture is the amount of green movement.  This is a very tricky, severe green!  I used to play there quite a bit from '89 to 93 because a very close friend was the head professional. The Tillie bunkering was among the best I have ever seen--maybe better than Winged Foot.  That being said, there are some great pictures of this hole with the Tillie bunkers.  Aesthetically, the Tillie bunkers looked better.  However, Rees ruined them beyond recovery, so this is a significant improvement that I eagerly look forward to experiencing.

[corey miller]

I guess this thread serves to show how difficult it is to protect and restore classic architecture in this country.  

It is comical how much misinformation is floating around on this thread. Obviously, this is a "template" hole from a famous golden age designer, and the hole we had the most photographic evidence for.  Should Hanse and Bahto have proposed something else?  

In my view, it is important for an architect to take advantage of views and vistas as the player plays the golf holes.  This to me is another element of routing but one rarely spoken of.

It may be irrelevant to us landscape experts in 2007 but the peak across the river is High Tor which is mentioned in "The legend of Sleepy Hollow".  There are mid 19th century Hudson River School paintings of High Tor which look to have been painted from a vantage point quite near our 16th green.  Hell, there was even a  play and movie "High Tor" based on the belief that the peak had some sort of mystical powers.

It is a significant view and I believe it represents the most significant spot that Macdonald ever placed a "short" hole.

As for the routing and use of the gorge.  Par 3's were the only way across.  The third hole is essentially benched into a steep hill at an angle and the terrain behind the 16 tee is very severe and that is why 15 is a natural punchbowl coming down from the ridge. Yes, 16 plays from ridge to ridge but the actual ridge on the tee side is about 50 yards behind the tee.  Pat Mucci has it right, but then again he has actually played and analyzed the course.  

In fact, I would argue it is a great routing with three of the best holes on the course near this very difficult terrain.  

I don't want to say anything about Madison, Ga. because I have never been there but it is a little strange that someone would admire victorian and antebellum structures in the village and abhor the modern, yet when a golf course restores a modern looking hole to a classic look it is criticized.

Geez, I hope Mr. Keiser doesn't see this or he might have to reconsider building "old macdonald".

[Tom_Doak]

Corey:

You haven't seen what Old Macdonald will look like yet.  And neither have I, so we'll have to hold judgment on it.

You and Mike H. have both professed that we can only comment on this Sleepy Hollow hole as a faithful or unfaithful restoration -- but I don't see how that argument flies when Gil and George have CHOSEN to take Tillinghast holes on the same course and "Raynorize" them.  Those holes aren't restored; they are interpretations of what Raynor might have done, and they've generally been praised here [I haven't seen them myself].  But doesn't that decision make it fair game to discuss the merits of this style in this location?  They could have decided Tillinghast was the man to follow.  Did Tillie leave this hole exactly as we see it today?

I do agree with you that it would have been unlikely to route the two holes across the gorge as anything but par-3 holes ... it's much steeper and deeper on that part of the property than these pictures show.

[Bill_McBride]

A couple of months ago at Dixie Cup in Madison GA I took a few minutes to walk around town one afternoon. For those who have not been to Madison, it is an idyllic as a small southern town can be. The residents have put an enormous amount of money into renovating/restoring their homes, a very pleasant blend of Victorian, Antebellum, and early 20th century styles. Their lawns and fences are maintained immaculately.

Right in the middle of town their is an old brick community building. On the community building's front lawn are several modern art sculptures crafted out of scrap iron and the like.

This green is about as out of place as that crap on the lawn in Madison.

John, I loved old downtown Madison too.  Have to disagree with you, I think restoring the green at Sleepy Hollow is in the same category as restoring downtown Madison by taking away that "crap" you are talking about!

But I did agree with you about the need to get rid of that crap.  Good call......

** edit:  Just saw Corey Miller's post above and think he's saying the same thing I'm saying.  Your position is contradictory.

[corey miller]

Tom D.

Perhaps my first statement threw you off?  I have argued since the beginning that Sleepy Hollow is only a restoration in the sense that we are attempting to restore a classic look to the property.  That could be Tillie or Macdonald, indeed, I wanted no part of that decision and it was the most important question I asked anyone we interviewed.

In my post, I am not sure that I  professed  anything.  I asked a simple question, in the view of this website should Gil and George have proposed something else for this hole?

I attempted to make three points in my post:

1. the spot for 16 is one of the great views for a par #3 in golf and IMO is better than any other spot of a Macdonald/Raynor par #3.

2. It was unlikely that anything other than par 3's would fit this spot (gorge) based on the terrain.  

3. and regardless of what style we prefer, it is the uninspired Rees rendition that is the non-classic blight.

It never really occured to me to not  attempt to faithfully "restore" the two "template" holes (reverse redan, short) that we had photographic evidence  for in light of our interpreting the other 16 holes.  

I strongly believe Tillie left #16 substancially the same.  The only difference seems to be that the bunkering around the green becomes a horseshoe by 1940 with the back unbunkered.  It was only in the 50's that all the bunkering starts to get chopped up.



Some people don't like the style that is fine with me, in fact, I expected half the members within the club would not like the style.  Luckily, that has not been the case.

As for Tillie vs Macdonald/Raynor at Sleepy Hollow ?  Well you can argue that with Bahto now, he's been on my speed dial for four years and I need a break. He's your problem now

[Kyle Harris]

For John and Bill:

[Bill Brightly]

Seems to me that the historical significance of Sleepy Hollow should be part of this discussion.  Whether you like template holes or not, Sleepy Hollow represents a huge step in C.B. Macdonald developing his craft.

After Macdonald finished the National Golf Links, he had set a new standard for golf courses in America and abroad. There was nothing else like it. As I see it, National spurred Mackenzie and Ross and Tilly and all the others on to great things.

While Macdonald was developing his style in 1911 at Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock, the other architects, quite naturally, had to "step up their game" and so they did. Sleepy Hollow was so early in Macdonald's career, it is extremely significant. The fact that he was hired by names such as Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Choate, Colgate, Macy, Astor, Harriman, etc, etc. to build this course simply adds to the historical importance of the course.

TD, I am surprised that you would suggest that because Tilly added 6 or 7 holes in the back of the property (I think due to a land swap that required the removal of some Macdonald holes) that it might be reason to consider removing what Macdonald built here and convert to a Tilly style. The course has HUGE significance in the history of Macdonald, and his engineer, Seth Raynor. I fail to see any meaningful significance to the Tillinghast holes in the back of the property, which have none of the beautiful views in the front of the property.

As Corey said, Gil Hanse had no other way but to restore the 16th as Macdonald built it, and he did so beautifully. (especially after the club made the decision to go with the Macdonald style...) To think that this hole might be re-constructed based upon what some other people think a short par 3 should look like is ludicrous.

If you read Ran's recent review, you will see a close up picture of the green, and you can see the subtle yet spectacular contours of the green. The trap presents an effect, the green contours make it a fantastic short hole, and the view makes it world class.

Some people may like other architectual styles better than Macdonald's, but there is no escaping the historical significance of this architect, this course, and this hole.

John Cullum's comments reminded me of one of my favorite Abraham Lincoln quotes:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

[Joe Hancock]

I'm now confused as to why the fact that the hole was restored should matter as to whether someone can express why they think the hole is a good design, or not.

If the hole was that way long ago and there is a significant reason to keep it that way, great. But, what does that have to do with the original question? What am I missing here?

Joe

ADDED: Would the question be more straightforward if this was a new course?

[Bart Bradley]

For me (as one who has only seen this picture and not played the hole) it looks like the hole would be challenging and fun to play.  But visually, I find the design of the green complex to be unappealing.  The slope into and out of the bunker looks too consistent, as though it is an artificial trench dug out by a backhoe with no blending of slope or contours...With my little brain and knowledge, this could be the actual point of the design....But when I look, my brain just says it is not a harmonious picture.  Personally, I prefer golf holes that are harmonious with their environment.

Disharmony however is jolting and attention getting and perhaps, for some, may be great design.

Bart

[wsmorrison]

"As I see it, National spurred Mackenzie and Ross and Tilly and all the others on to great things."  

That is a pretty bold statement.  Do you think there are facts to support such a notion?  When do you consider Macdonald was finished with the NGLA design? Perhaps Macdonald spurred a majority of Americans to see the folly of steeplechase designs, of which he himself practiced in the original Chicago GC design. But to say he influenced a better design effort by MacKenzie, Ross, Tillinghast, etc. might be prove to be a difficult conclusion come to.

MacKenzie accomplished outstanding work before NGLA was built.  How about:

Alwoodley GC  1907
Darlington GC  1909
Fulford GC  1909
Moortown GC  1909

Tillinghast's Shawnee course (1908) was considered ground-breaking and a major improvement in golf design before NGLA was complete.

I don't know Ross very well considering the amount of his work, but I would welcome some indication that Macdonald's work at NGLA spurred him onto great designs.  I don't believe there is a cause and effect, but perhaps you'll prove me wrong.

As for all the others:

Tom Morris

Willie Park, Jr.

CC New Bedford 1902
Coombe Hill  1909
Huntercombe GC  1901
Silloth-on-Solway GC  1894
Sunningdale Old  1901
Gullane GC
Western Gailes  1897

Harry Colt:

Alwoodley GC  1907
Stoke Poges GC 1908
Swinley Forest GC  1910
Le Toquet GC  1908

Herbert Fowler

Walton Heath Old  1904
West Surrey 1909
Royal North Devon redesign  1908

Herbert Leeds--he designed the first truly great course in America, not Macdonald

Myopia Hunt Club  1896, 1901

Shall I continue?

[Bill Brightly]

Bart,

I'm curious. Did you see Ran's close-up picture of the green?

[Bill Brightly]

I wondered what it would take to get Wayne in this thread

Yeah, I think the collection of 18 great holes Macdonald built at National raised the bar for everyone.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

I'm curious. Did you see Ran's close-up picture of the green?

Yeah Bill,

I did and this is one of the reasons I said that I thought the hole was probably challenging and fun to play.  The upclose countours of the actual green are great...Couldn't they be the same and not have the uniformly carved out bunker/trench around the green?  From the tee, though, I think I would find the whole of the green complex to not fit the surrounding topography...I probably would greatly enjoy playing the hole, I just would prefer to "look at" others.

Does this explain any better?

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not going to go as far as Wayne and argue that National didn't raise the bar for golf course architecture in America.  But, I don't think it had the same significance abroad.  

MacKenzie was inspired and tutored by Harry Colt, and he didn't see National for himself until the mid-1920's when he started traveling the globe (and building great courses all over it).  Macdonald's only real influence on his career was the Lido Prize contest which put Dr. MacKenzie's name on the map.

Bill B:  I didn't say that I thought Macdonald's work at Sleepy Hollow should be changed, just that considering other possibilities than restoring the hole must have been on the table, if Gil and George and the club could decide to make major changes to other holes on the course.

[Bill Brightly]

Bart,

OK, I think your problem is with the bunker, not the green.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

OK, I think your problem is with the bunker, not the green.

Yes...you are right.  I actually prefer Ran's pictures of the original bunkering but do think the contours of the green look excellent....I think the hole could play nearly the same without the continous, perfectly trenched bunker and I would like the appearance much better.

Bart

[John Kirk]

What is the distance from the shortest tee?

I'm thinking about my wife playing the hole.  She's about a 18-20 index now, with decent strength.  If it's 130 to the center, she can hit 7 iron over the bunker.  Anything longer, and she can't get the trajectory to hold that green.

Short holes are for squares.

[Bill Brightly]

I'm not going to go as far as Wayne and argue that National didn't raise the bar for golf course architecture in America.  But, I don't think it had the same significance abroad.  

MacKenzie was inspired and tutored by Harry Colt, and he didn't see National for himself until the mid-1920's when he started traveling the globe (and building great courses all over it).  Macdonald's only real influence on his career was the Lido Prize contest which put Dr. MacKenzie's name on the map.

Bill B:  I didn't say that I thought Macdonald's work at Sleepy Hollow should be changed, just that considering other possibilities than restoring the hole must have been on the table, if Gil and George and the club could decide to make major changes to other holes on the course.

Tom,

Mackenzie didn't have to see National to be effected by its presence, he no doubt heard all about it. I wonder if there are any Mackenzie quotes about Macdonald's work?

I have a theory that Tillinghast really disliked what Macdonald built. He was a competitor of Raynor and Banks, for sure. I wonder what Tilly's thought process was when he got his hands on a MacRaynor...and his work for the USGA in the 1930's after Macdonald, Raynor and Banks were dead leaves no doubt in my mind: he wanted to erase that style and impose his own.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think Dev Emmett needs to be mentioned.

He build Garden City in 1897 and was already building courses like Leatherstocking by 1909.   We also know he travelled abroad frequently to play and study the great courses, and we also know he helped Macdonald with NGLA.

Chicken or Egg?

[Peter Pallotta]

On a similar thread a while back, Pat Mucci said to Wayne Morrison something like "It's a test of golf, not a piece of poetry". And I thought to myself "but why not give me both, every time?".

For my tastes, a green at fairway grade (sort of like Mike S's post, but without the bunkers) is nearly always more poetic in its quietness, and most often prettier; and it can't help but be more natural.  And as a test of golf, I think Joe H's questions are telling:

"...would more natural use of the slopes surrounding the green be more intimidating? Is the wrap-around bunker in effect a safety net for poorly struck shots?"

Peter

[Bill Brightly]

That is interesting, Mike. I did not know Emmett help Macdonald. But Macdonald was playing the Old Course 20 years earlier while in college,forming the opinions that only young adults can form...
I think the egg was hatching then

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill,

From George Bahto's interview on this site;

"Dev Emmet was a renaissance man, a golf designer and a close friend of Macdonald. He assisted CB in gathering information in the British Isles in preparation to building National - actually lending help in design and construction."

Earlier this year I came across information that Emmett actually travelled overseas (which he did regularly as a man of leisure who had a passion for golf) and sketched the top holes for Macdonald's use at NGLA, at Macdonalds request.